SJW

[smellibear]

this thread will probably just devolve into RAV rants but I'm curious as to what my old friends here think of social justice/feminism/SJWs

go

[RageAgainstVoid]

It's good that there are ways to opt-out of the normative system of society for a different way of life. It's good that people can defend their free spirit and have places to go which encourage, support, shelter and protect them in that. It's good that people are able to disagree and still be treated humane. It's good to be reminded that being nice, helpful and respectful with each other is not worse than being competitive, nor is it mutually exclusive. It's good that when you feel left out or ostracized or harassed, there's still someone there for you, who understands you better than others could, who doesn't blame you for who you are, someone you can be happy with. It's good to have options and diversity. It's good to have compassion towards the suffering of others. It's good to be given a fair chance for a successful life, to your own standard and decision as it concerns yourself. It's good that there are people that don't get comfortable in a shitty world, but demand it be better. It's good that the ruling powers have to worry about consequences to their actions, and can't just hide behind their own laws and enforcement.

[Turkey_Slayer]

It's bad that SJWs are rarely like that. It's bad that they have overused the word trigger so much that it feels like it no longer has any actual clinical meaning for PTSD.

[Cassiel]

That stuff basically just doesn't exist in my world.

[smellibear]

what stuff Cass you mean like women? if so call me some time

RAV and Turkey highlighted something I was curious about though--the difference between how people fighting for social justice and the somewhat derisive term SJW are viewed and whether some consider there to be a difference at all.

Also yes per the trigger warning thing there are those individuals out there--mostly teenagers, mostly female--who have taken the trigger concept and run a little farther with it than they merit. But also the notion of trigger warnings is pretty much entirely harmless, so why care?

[Zeuter]

I really, really dislike the social justice movement. It's a combination of college students who shouldn't have gone to college, bizarre hyperbole, hypocrisy, homophobia and thought policing. What is especially awful about it is the segment of middle class white women who are just dying to be oppressed by something, so they make up all kinds of weird shit. Being gay is misogynist because you don't show romantic affection to women, but a man looking at a woman is literally rape. The only thing it's achieving is creating an aversion to feminism in the general public due to their absurd representations of it. Thin privilege, microaggressions, trigger warnings, I could go on and on. It's all overwrought emotional bullshit.

That said, I do notice the ridiculous things women have to put up with from straight men. That's not a product of The Patriarchy, but a function of humans being utter idiots. As long as men and women are not biologically identical, there won't be equality. The only thing you can do from a shitty position is claw yourself upwards as hard as you can, no matter the challenges you may face. Nobody likes malcontents.

Reducing inequality is a noble goal, but the SJW movement is achieving the contrary. As for me, I started a company with only GBT (good luck finding women, let alone lesbians in tech) founders. The way to fight inequality is to elevate yourself, not by dragging everyone else down.

ＴＨＥＲＥ’Ｓ　ＮＯ　ＪＵＳＴＩＣＥ，　ＴＨＥＲＥ’Ｓ　ＪＵＳＴ　ＵＳ．

[Cassiel]

what stuff Cass you mean like women?

The social justice movement. It's a thing in tech generally, but the bar is set much higher in security than it is at e.g. a social media company. The net result is that the smartest people get hired, period. Most of the people I work with are immigrants, and more than half of them are women. Social justice is not a concern for these people, much like the plight of English majors is not a concern for me.

Grad school was of course a completely different story.

[smellibear]

@Cass

Well that sounds like a pretty cool workplace, I trust everyone is paid the same as determined by their level of skill too. But does this mean you view social justice as only an effort to equalize workplace opportunities and that people of color and women don't face challenges outside of this progressive field in which you are employed? And that if an issue does not directly affect you then you have no interest in it?

@Zeut

Man there is a lot going on there and I am not sure where to begin. But I guess I can sum it up with your feeling is we should dismiss movements based on their most rabid outliers, right? And then this

As long as men and women are not biologically identical, there won't be equality.

Very curious as to how you arrived at this conclusion and what you mean by "biologically identical" perhaps you might supply us with how much biological variance is allowed are we only talking sex characteristics or does this apply to subtler mutations and variations?

[Cassiel]

Well that sounds like a pretty cool workplace

It is.

I trust everyone is paid the same as determined by their level of skill too.

The women I work with are senior engineers and engineering managers and, yes, make more than the men they oversee and are on par with their male peers. I'm probably the most underpaid person at the moment, and once I hit my 1-year they're going to have to pony up to keep me. Papa wants to retire soon.

But does this mean you view social justice as only an effort to equalize workplace opportunities and that people of color and women don't face challenges outside of this progressive field in which you are employed?

What you say is not implied by what I said. Being from China or Israel or Iran or India probably puts a different spin on things, but you'd have to ask them why it's not an issue.

And that if an issue does not directly affect you then you have no interest in it?

Defective induction. I don't care about social justice as a movement because its proponents have poisoned the well. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Basically I agree with Zeuter.

[smellibear]

What you say is not implied by what I said. Being from China or Israel or Iran or India probably puts a different spin on things, but you'd have to ask them why it's not an issue.

whether this or what was what you intended to imply should have little impact on answering the question I should think. what I'm trying to suss out is what you (y'all) believe social justice and the social justice movement to be. you said it was not a concern of those people you worked with and I am wondering what you base that on

I'm also curious about the notion of poisoning of the well of a movement or a school of thought but first I have to figure out what my question would be

[Cassiel]

whether this or what was what you intended to imply should have little impact on answering the question I should think.

Implication.

what I'm trying to suss out is what you (y'all) believe social justice and the social justice movement to be. you said it was not a concern of those people you worked with and I am wondering what you base that on

You're assuming that it exists at all for them. I'm telling you, it isn't part of their conceptual vocabulary.

I'm also curious about the notion of poisoning of the well of a movement or a school of thought but first I have to figure out what my question would be

What's there to be curious about? It doesn't matter how noble your cause is -- if you're a douchebag, then fuck you and fuck the cause you rode in on.

[smellibear]

q may be false but I'm not sure it doesn't merit an a

nah what I assume is that as minorities they have certain experiences that privileged majorities don't really share and that social justice is an attempt to address those. also I know social justice is a western concept that historically has not allowed much if any room for non-academics, non-whites, non-westerners etc and their experiences. doesn't mean it doesn't exist right?

I dunno I guess I'm curious as to how serious you are like do you mean that if you're a douchebag then you're a piece of shit and if you're a piece of shit then your ideas are shit? Also what is your criteria for douchebaggery, cuz sometimes you've been pretty douchey and it definitely hasn't meant that you were wrong

[Cassiel]

q may be false but I'm not sure it doesn't merit an a

The answer is obviously a blanket "no." But the more interesting part is that you asked the question.

nah what I assume is that as minorities they have certain experiences that privileged majorities don't really share and that social justice is an attempt to address those. also I know social justice is a western concept that historically has not allowed much if any room for non-academics, non-whites, non-westerners etc and their experiences. doesn't mean it doesn't exist right?

It doesn't exist for them, just like there are all kinds of things in other cultures that don't exist for us.

I dunno I guess I'm curious as to how serious you are like do you mean that if you're a douchebag then you're a piece of shit and if you're a piece of shit then your ideas are shit? Also what is your criteria for douchebaggery, cuz sometimes you've been pretty douchey and it definitely hasn't meant that you were wrong

"If ... then" is a logical construct. But I'm not making an argument; I just don't care.

[RageAgainstVoid]

The modern Social Justice movement really is defined by its many particular rationalizations and actions. General ideas and sentiments on decency and fairness in social relation were not invented by it, are not exclusive to it, and arguably it is not the best implementation of them; I would even make the case that it often twists them counter-intuitive.

A common mind game of it is: "Oh, so you don't like my Social Justice. Why do you not care about other people less fortunate than you?"

Like a catholic Christian might say: "Oh, you don't care about my holy scripture? So you might as well be a cheater and murderer, because my ten commandments say you shall not do that, but you just said you don't care."

Or "oh you don't like the Black Panthers, so you're a racist."

I can believe in all those things I said in my first post, yet I can not like Social Justice as is commonly practised and preached and I personally encounter -- there is no logical conflict to that.

Many gays do not like christian religion, because there's a lot of homophobic vibes coming from it. I understand those gays. I could make a case how that is an extreme, and in an ideal interpretation it is a pretty nice thing. Yet even at its nicest interpretation, while I might be sympathetic to it, and there are values I share, its particular spin of attitudes are still not something I'd identify myself with and actively support, and it's not an argument that stops my overall resentment towards it from my experience on a lot of practical issues. I do know a pretty awesome pastor from my youth, absolutely loved that dude (:p) and how he went about it, still I'm not into it.

Same could be said about Islamic faith. All those al-Qaidas of the world definitely ruin it for me.

I perceive SJW activists as culture terrorists. And that is their own fault, not mine.

[Cassiel]

So, so many things in this post that I like.

[smellibear]

okay so I'll have some better responses tomorrow but I just had to come down on this

I perceive SJW activists as culture terrorists. And that is their own fault, not mine.

because it reminds me of when bell hooks called Beyonce a terrorist and well that's just some funny shit right there

[Cassiel]

bell hooks is a terrorist.

[RageAgainstVoid]

North Korea calls itself democratic people's republic, and the imperialistic West brainwashed.

But I think the more dirty shit you got in mind, the less it got brainwashed.

Beyonce's crime against humanity is to be successful with being sexy. bell hooks & co can speculate all they want how wrong fantasy entertainment makes everyone's life terrible. All I know is, the SJWs I usually meet like to make me feel really terrible. Watching Beyonce's hips shake makes me truly happy. No prohibition or re-education camp is ever gonna change that. No propaganda pamphlet is ever gonna convince me that's bad. The girls can decide for themselves. As much as anyone can ask and expect. And I can go fuck myself for that. My. money. votes. ass. Someone will take advantage of that. That's not always for my best, I give you that. Doesn't mean my business means your worst, don't disturb. What perfect life is there anyway. Do.It.Yourself. take it in your hands. your own life. your first world. the freedom you have. leave me mine, it doesn't hurt. or I kick your ass, that hurts a lot. Plenty strong, confident and independent women out there smart enough to see, they got no problem with me.

[smellibear]

so there is no difference to you guys between social justice and what you identify as SJW? what do you call activists then like let's say the people who are protesting in Ferguson--are they fighting for social justice or not?

[Turkey_Slayer]

what do you call activists then like let's say the people who are protesting in Ferguson

I calls 'em coloreds.

[smellibear]

[gif]Oprah throwing major shade[/gif]

[RageAgainstVoid]

you might call it social justice. but is that Social Justice?
Nice hat trick: there is no other social justice than mine.
They just don't know better. I got their problems all figured out.
Representing all inclusive justice makes me flashily important.


But why don't we ask the people of Ferguson what they call themselves?

I can just imagine, hooking up with the angry black man rioting the streets.

"Hi there, fellow SJW! I'm here for your support, bro!
but would you tone down your language. 'Bitch' is very misogynic, kinda hurts my feelings.
Did you know Beyonce is a terrorist? And please, don't play GrandTheftAuto! It's objectifying.
After all we're fighting for the same cause. for social justice! We're here to topple patriarchy and capitalism!

...

Hello?

...

"

Breaking news:
Gangbang rape on open streets! Suspect says: "This crazy white bitch ain't tellin' no nigger shit!"

[Zeuter]

@Zeut

The thing about SJWs is that no one but the rabid outliers are actually visible to anyone outside that community, which makes me doubt that there's any sanity whatever on the inside.

I meant biologically identical as in having the same DNA. As long as there are 2 people who aren't the same individual, there's inequality. As long as men don't have to endure pregnancy or have an innate drive to bear children, as long as men are more inclined to short-term relationships than women, there's inequality. Then there's the whole being stronger on average thing (which some SJW actually argued against because physical strength was a social construct). And if it's not that, it's your intelligence, your skin colour, your personality traits, your immune system, your looks, what have you.

Humans aren't born equal, and won't treat each other as such. There's no fixing that. The best you can do is surrounding yourself with people who will at least acknowledge that they're apes, but there will always be idiots (sorry for the ableist language) out there. Fat femme latino genderqueers aren't going to destroy capitalism, so abuse capitalism to get what you want instead. Complaining about it won't help anyone.

[smellibear]

@RAV

so is the problem with how social justice is performed by different people? like the way a certain sort of feminist (over educated well off white able bodies etc...) is constantly speaking about their guilt over marriage versus I dunno a TERF who cyber stalks and harasses other women? or is it more about how intersectionality is 'fine' in theory but in practice falls apart completely

@Zeut

there are definitely rabid outliers and they can't all be trolls and yes some of the ideas SJWs bandy about are... ludicrous is as good a word as any I guess. but when you see someone say something like "strength is a social construct" like... I mean you see that for what it is right? It's like when I was a senior in high school and was getting my intro to philosophy and suddenly I was throwing around the word "ontological" like it was making me money. I thought I was hot shit but the reality was I knew shit and what shit I knew I wasn't using right

hmmmmm you say a lot of things about equality and biology. but as an example what about the strength thing: if that person was trying to communicate the idea that since girls are discouraged from building strength and muscle like boys are of course they'll be weaker on average, would you agree/disagree with that

[Ensabahnur]

Hard part is finding people to surround yourself with.

Ferguson was an insurrerection.