Netbooks.

[Cassiel]

"Trust no one."

[windigo]

If you want a real life example look at how the Playstation broke into the game console market. At the time it was dominated by Nintendo and Sega and both were tight asses about what they would allow to be published, far beyond what is usually called quality control. Sony came in with superior hardware, little to no restrictions regarding content and gave back more royalties. Developers flocked en masse and along with them the customers. You never win by pissing off your content creators unless you have a nigh unbreakable mono/oligopoly.

Well right now Apple is slowly but surely taking a chunk of the portable gaming the market from Sony and Nintendo. The casual market is huge and that's who they mainly target.

I agree with you guys in regrad to the openness to a degree. The problem is before people care about that, they need to be on equal footing in other areas.

[ProblemLyric]

The droid is taking over the market though http://www.changewaveresearch.com/artic ... 00331.html . And all these so called new features the iphone is rolling out the droid has had since the start as well as an ever increasing app market . Hell the droid had multi touch out of the gate but google didn't allow it to roll out with the inital release because they were afraid it was gonna offend apple. Seriously compared to all my friends on At&t and their iphones my droid does it better and faster. Honestly even moving to verizion with the iphone i doubt much will change with the open app developing(hello no fees) and with openness of the phones themselves as well as the ability to cater to all markets with its os android will probably be the leading market share from blackberry and iphone within a year or two.

[Cassiel]

Of course all internet research does have to be taken with a grain of salt. I remember how much misinformation there was during the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD debate, and that misinformation (for example, Blu-ray being proprietary and owned by Sony, Sony being able to deny the porn industry use of the format, etc.) ended up being the key to how things played out. So I can't say for certain that Apple is moving toward closed development the way people are saying, but if they are, it's going to break their iToys.

[windigo]

AT&T is hindering the iPhone's spread. I'm not sure how much Apple cares though.

There could be a few reasons - they might want to keep that card in their hand for later or maybe they just don't care about the US market that much. I don't know.

It did just occur to me why they probably left out the OS update on the iPad launch. Basically, it gives them another free "launch" in November. Right now they get all the hardcore early adopters (Apple fanboys). Then there's a lot of people who say "well, if it had multitasking..." etc. Well, once that happens I think those people WILL be more likely to buy one whereas if it launched with it they would think of some other excuse to be unhappy.

[Cassiel]

Nah, that's not how it works.

edit: Looks like quite a few early adopter-reviewers are returning their iPads.

[windigo]

like... legally?

I didn't even click the link but I'm sure its just some sensationalist bs.

There was a rumor story on slashdot about a Google pad coming soon. I hope that's the case. That's a platform I think the chromium would be perfect for.

Also re: misinformation about bluray.

So you had the facts wrong and everyone else (general public buying them) knew otherwise? Or they also believed the misinformation and bought it anyways? I'm pretty sure most of the people buying them don't know shit for facts either way.

Basically, people don't know shit about shit. It all comes down to swaying public perception with whatever works.

Apple does a good job of this just like Sony did with the PS3 (and PS2 maybe even more so when killed the Dreamcast).

As many complete retards there are that like Apple because it's shiny and has cool music in the commercials (I will even admit - this is most of their market probably), there's also people who understand of the real benefits it has over the competition - at least in some areas.

Relying on smart buyers to drive the market in the right direction will never work though... so here we are.

Same reason people shouldn't be able to vote.

[Cassiel]

Basically, people don't know shit about shit. It all comes down to swaying public perception with whatever works.

Um, no, it has nothing to do with consumers. The war was fought between Developers/Distributors/Manufacturers. The effect of this struggle trickles down to consumers because open formats create DDM competition (which the DDMs still prefer to being shut out completely), which both increases the available devices and content, and drives down prices, encouraging consumer adoption on both ends. If Blu-ray really was a closed technology, which it isn't, and if Sony really did have the power to say who could and could not use the format, which they don't, DDMs would never have gotten behind it.

And as for sensationalism, no. It's simply the case that a bunch of media personalities like Jeff Jarvis who bought iPads are returning them and telling people why.

http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/artic ... 1270688736

I wouldn't really expect Google's or anyone else's tablet to do all that well, either, unless they find or invent a serious niche for it. Like I said before, this just isn't a device people need. Most of those "I returned my iPad" articles say the same thing: they got drawn in by the hype, bought one, then once they started using it realized, "Wait, why do I need this? I already have a phone/laptop/etc."

[windigo]

I totally agree with you which is exactly why I think it will be a success.

Pretty soon people are going to wonder why they have a dual core laptop, 500 GB HD, 4 GB RAM, etc. and all they use it for is going on Facebook, listening to music, and browsing the web.

If there's a market for netbooks I think there's definitely a market for pads. They are both basically consuming devices. Some netbooks try to be more than that and those are the ones people need to rethink buying.

[Myth]

Pretty soon people are going to wonder why they have a dual core laptop, 500 GB HD, 4 GB RAM, etc. and all they use it for is going on Facebook, listening to music, and browsing the web.

If you add "Watching movies on Netflix" and "writing papers in Word" you have the complete list of what I use my laptop for, basically.

[windigo]

I imagine the Netflix thing will happen soon enough.

Writing papers though is because your a student or are in a line of work where that is something you'll frequently do. Most people probably do more text messaging with their thumbs than any actual writing.

I have heard some people around my work raving how awesome the iPad is as a creation device - thinking dragging images around in the document is amazing and the keyboard is easy to use. These people *are* retards, don't get me wrong. I just wonder if this is something that might take off too.

In my opinion - it shouldn't. But in my opinion the Wii is fucking retarded too.

[RageAgainstVoid]

That comparison is off, however retarded it may be, the Wii was also considerably cheaper than the competition. That was the whole big shift in business strategy that Nintendo introduced: how much is really needed, how can it still be enticing in its reduction, and how affordable can we make it for that while still making business sense. Apple does the opposite: how much more pretentious can we be to drive the price as high as possible and still get away with absurd profit margins.

I don't care at all what they add. I'd care more what they should subtract:
Several hundred dollars and their platform restrictions, for starters.
Then the customer could think and decide about what else to add for that.

[Cassiel]

I imagine the Netflix thing will happen soon enough.

Writing papers though is because your a student or are in a line of work where that is something you'll frequently do. Most people probably do more text messaging with their thumbs than any actual writing.

I have heard some people around my work raving how awesome the iPad is as a creation device - thinking dragging images around in the document is amazing and the keyboard is easy to use. These people *are* retards, don't get me wrong. I just wonder if this is something that might take off too.

In my opinion - it shouldn't. But in my opinion the Wii is fucking retarded too.

Actually I'd be amazed if most of the people who can afford stuff like the iPad don't do some form of writing for their job. Studies show that the most writing is done by people from whom you'd least expect it. Engineers were #1, for example.

[windigo]

Are you on crack? The Wii was overpriced since day 0 and the Xbox 360 right now is cheaper than the Wii.

The 360 and PS3 sold for a loss when it was released. The Wii was profitable since the first day - that's how it's sort of comparable. It's also very gimmicky and appeals to the mass casual audience.


The people I think who will buy iPads are the usual people who buy this stuff and the most important market: the people who can't afford them. You know these people. The same ones with iPhones, shoes that cost more than my whole outfit, and some car they shouldn't be driving. These are the people that will buy it because of the marketing hype / how its a status symbol.

This is part of the battle and luckily for Apple they win that easily. It's even easier because those people are the ones already targeted by all the things the iPad accels at - consuming mind numbing interwebs like Facebook, etc - so they have synergy.

The other people who are engineers, etc. that are smart enough and actually make a living that can afford these things won't buy it for those reasons. They might buy it for the reasons I've mentioned before (not that *I* would buy one - it's still a little pricey for me, myself).

Then there's just rich people - they buy shit because it just doesn't matter.

[Myth]

I hate this thread.

[Cassiel]

Are you on crack? The Wii was overpriced since day 0 and the Xbox 360 right now is cheaper than the Wii.

The 360 and PS3 sold for a loss when it was released. The Wii was profitable since the first day - that's how it's sort of comparable. It's also very gimmicky and appeals to the mass casual audience.

Err, how is that comparable? Sonysoft went with loss leaders, their products were still horribly overpriced, and they got whooped by the Wii. The Wii wasn't overpriced. Maybe it is now--I don't pay attention to consoles--but for a long time it wasn't. The fact that Nintendo was able to make it profitable immediately rather than gambling on a loss leader doesn't mean they overpriced it. It means they priced it just right.

And consoles in general are pretty much for casual gamers, with the exception of fighting games. Hardcore and competitive gaming is done almost exclusively on the PC.

[RageAgainstVoid]

Are you on crack? The Wii was overpriced since day 0 and the Xbox 360 right now is cheaper than the Wii.

The 360 and PS3 sold for a loss when it was released. The Wii was profitable since the first day - that's how it's sort of comparable. It's also very gimmicky and appeals to the mass casual audience.

Hah, I love how that the Wii was sold profitable almost sounded like a blame!

We are talking justifiable business and margins here, not blaming business for earning money.
If it was for Apple, they had sold the Wii for the price of the ps3 since day 0, here is your comparison.

But then again, if it was them, everything would be fine right? When Nintendo makes some buck in an affordable segment, it's retarded and exploitative and heads are shaken about the people who buy it. When Apple prices three times more than that supposed edge could possibly justify, then it's genius business, more power to them, and it's all understandable that there are those who'd buy it. right.

[windigo]

I'm just saying the Wii has a much higher marked up price.

I would guess it's probably around the same level as the iPad - at this point the Wii is probably even more inflated though since it's been out so long.

I don't think anyone but core gamers really think the Wii is overpriced - they think its a good deal. They also get all exciting about waving a baton around and pretending like they are playing tennis. Nintendo's successful because this group of people is very large and that's where they make all these sales.

There's also people like me though who do like the Wii for other reasons - particularly Mariokart, New Mario Bros, and a few other games. I like it because based on this criteria - it beats the rest of the competition. I still think it costs too much just for that so I didn't buy it. (same stance as the iPad).

I don't see where I'm demonizing Nintendo and not Apple here. I consider them pretty much the same in this regard. They are both doing quite well for themselves.

BTW Myth you started this!!! And just so you have something positive to take away from this - the Wii can now stream Netflix. So don't worry - as soon as we figure out how to plug in a keyboard and start Wii Office, you're all set.

[RageAgainstVoid]

Well, that is what you say now. I was responding to you by knowing the course of the whole discussion, and even past discussions on that matter. Altogether, I'm reminding you of possible double standards that have glimmered through here and there for some time now. Just the other minute, you called the Wii or its pricing or Nintendo retarded, and it's not the first time you were derisive towards them, be it price or being gimmicky, whereas for Apple I cannot remember that you ever used a similar strong word against them or were otherwise outspoken of their malpractice, rather your tone has been remarkably sympathetic on the very same issues. I'm not particularly defending Nintendo as of now, though it again is striking how you blame the Wii's pricing when the total price is still in such a low segment. It simply doesn't compare, overpriced or not, buying the Wii on an impulse as toy or to feel cool is still within an acceptable threshold of ordinary waste, considering the lower price segment. However, buying Apple is a whole other level of total investment across the board, so it must measure up to a whole other level of scrutiny, it is much more reasonable to question the cost effectivity for functionality in that price segment.

[Cassiel]

They also get all exciting about waving a baton around and pretending like they are playing tennis.

Just like we do with fake drums and fake guitars. It's kind of fun.

There's also people like me though who do like the Wii for other reasons - particularly Mariokart, New Mario Bros, and a few other games. I like it because based on this criteria - it beats the rest of the competition. I still think it costs too much just for that so I didn't buy it. (same stance as the iPad).

Nintendo's game designers are basically just better than everyone else. The other consoles aren't about games; they're about graphics. The same would probably be true of PCs too, except the PC has non-negligible indie and modding scenes. Xbox is totally bringing this to consoles, which is awesome (→Braid), but it's not on the PC level yet.

I don't see where I'm demonizing Nintendo and not Apple here. I consider them pretty much the same in this regard. They are both doing quite well for themselves.

Their target audiences and marketing have virtually nothing in common. You should be comparing Apple to Sony and the PS3. The PS3 has been out for what, 3.5 years? And I still wouldn't even consider buying one. Speaking of which: they are being sold at a profit now.

[windigo]

This forum isn't a good indicator of where I stand on things, RAV. I'm just trying to balance things out toward reality here. Because things are so far already swung one direction (like against Apple) my stance might be it little bit over-correcting. (Same situation with the Nintendo lovers here) I'm like Fox News, RAV. I keep it fair and balanced.

Apple's by no means perfect but I do think OS X is superior to Windows and the best laptop in existence is a 15" i7 MacBook Pro.

I like Nintendo. I love games on the Wii that don't use the Wiimote. I own tons of Nintendo stuff.


Cass, in terms of game designers though Nintendo isn't really as glorious as it used to be. The new Kart is fun but it's a pile compared to older ones. In general Nintendo churns out a lot of crap now. There's a laundry list of awesome games on the 360 / PS3 - granted most of them aren't exclusives. Still, God of War, Drake's Fortune (1/2), Valkyria Chronicles, Demon's Souls (AWESOME!) are just 4 games on the PS3 alone that top all the Wii games worth playing.

The Wii has the casual audience though and that's way more important than core gamers when you're going for numbers. Sadly

[RageAgainstVoid]

It is very comforting to know that should I one day flagrantly murder a greater population of baby seals by clubbing them to death with kittens, and savagely feast on the remains, you will be here, raising your voice above both the menacing gnashing sounds of little bones between my teeth in the backround and the appalled and very one-sided protest of the public in front, to balance the view into reality, the reality that I am a misunderstood, shy but wholly kindhearted soul, that should be tolerated for its unique lifestyle and left to my business as I damn well please!

[Cassiel]

Maybe I would buy a tablet for this:

[Kaz]

Why are cats so awesome?

[gandalf37]

When I die, I want to be reborn as a cat.