Netbooks.

[Myth]

Hey guys. I'm shopping for a netbook, because I'm tired of dragging my behemoth desktop-replacement laptop everywhere. I was just going to get an Eee, as I am becoming a devoted follower of Asus, but any suggestions before I do so? Anybody have any experience with must-haves and have-nots?

Thanks in advance, and I hope you all have a simply beautiful day. I'm going to lash myself for using adverbs.

[windigo]

iPad!

Not joking. Anything I'd want to use a Netbook for I'd rather use the iPad.

Typing will suck more on the iPad but it also sucks on a Netbook. And you can just use a bluetooth keyboard and bam - problem solved.

If you must go the Netbook route they are all pretty much the same inside so go with the one that has the best feel. HP has some that actually have an OK keyboard but then the trackpad sucks... it's all personal preference though with these Netbooks.

[Myth]

Thank you, and no to the iPad, it's too expensive and I need to take notes in class, lol touch screen. But yeah, I'm just going to go for something cheap and easy. Thanks, though!

[Ensabahnur]

Basically, to quote someone from Digg:

Do you want a locked down device? Yes
Do keyboards bother you? Yes
Do you want half a netbook for twice the price? Yes
Are netbooks really too big? Yes
Do you like a limited amount of storage? Yes
Do you need a giant mp3 player? Yes
Do you want to me mugged at 3am riding on a NYC subway? Yes
Do you follow all trends no matter how stupid? Yes
If you answered yes to any of those questions, but an iPad.

[windigo]

I will address some of these as most of them are irrelevant.

Do you want a locked down device?

Who cares? What are you doing on an ultraportable device that necessitates otherwise. But also lets be honest - they will be jailbroken immediately.

Do keyboards bother you?

Small worthless keyboards do. It almost seems like that space could be better used for something else...

Do you want half a netbook for twice the price?

Other than lack of a keyboard the iPad does everything you'd actually WANT to use a netbook for better. That's why it costs more.

Do you like a limited amount of storage?

Do you know what a NETbook is? (that's actually the answer to the previous question btw)


Basically folks, most people don't actually do anything on their laptops and especially netbooks. They are just there to consume and the iPad makes that a better experience by bolstering its abilities in those areas while canning the rest of the crap that most people don't use anyways. To me the idea of an instant-on device to check email/whatever is pretty nice.

Bottom line - if someone offered me a 500$ netbook or an iPad - I'm going with the iPad.


Anyhow, Myth try out someone's Netbook for a bit and see what you think. Again, keyboard is pretty much the only deciding factor here because it's the only reason you're buying it. So find the one with the least annoying keyboard.

[gandalf37]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/03/apple-ipad-review/

Notable Quotes:

The penetration percentage for Flash on PCs around the world is something like 98 -- that's almost everyone -- and many, many sites employ the standard on their pages. When we say many, we mean most if not all of the pages you typically visit use Flash to display some of their content. The iPad browser doesn't support Flash, and won't support Flash, perhaps ever. Apple has not only turned away from what is the industry standard for rich media in webpages, but it instead is pushing a newer standard called HTML5. Apple has been very successful thus far in moving its agenda forward and bringing websites into the fold of HTML5, but we're talking maybe, say, one percent of websites on the internet. Probably way less.

So how much of a stumbling block is the lack of multitasking? The honest truth is that a large number of users won't notice or care, which is why it's easy for Apple to ignore the problem (or claim that their OS supports the functionality because they allow a handful of their native apps to run in the background). For the rest of us, this is starting to feel just like copy and paste -- a problem so obvious and so easy to fix that it's just perplexing Apple doesn't come up with a solution and end the conversation. The iPad may do many things better than a netbook, but multitasking is not one of them.

You will get work done with it, play with it, consume content with it, but the underlying framework of the real operating system is almost completely invisible. For instance, in applications like Numbers or Keynote, you don't have "files," rather a long, Cover Flow-style list of work to scroll through. Have 200 documents you've "saved"? Tough -- you just have to scroll through them all to get to the last one. To say that sometimes it feels like a computer for beginners might be overkill. But it's close.

Mind you these are all negative aspects but need to be explicitly said if Myth was to be looking at any of these aspects speficially, but an overall good quote to sum up the entire review:

For many consumers, it will be easy enough to accomplish much of what you would with a netbook or laptop on the iPad, and yet other experiences will extend far beyond what you would do on a typical computer. It's not a laptop replacement, and this OS can't do everything a laptop can do -- but maybe it doesn't have to.

and

The buyer of an iPad is one of two people, the first is someone who sees not just the present, but the potential of a product like the iPad... and believes in and is excited about that potential. This is also a person who can afford what amounts to a luxury item. The second is an individual who simply doesn't need to get that much work done, and would prefer their computing experience to be easier, faster, and simpler.

[windigo]

I'll comment on two things - multitasking and flash.

Multitasking - solved (as well on the 3GS). Nuff said.

Flash - this is tougher. You give up flash for two reasons. The first is it kills batter and is inefficient as hell, etc. Generalized use of flash isn't practical for low power usage / portable devices. The second reason is if they allowed flash people could easily bypass the app store and frankly the app store is the biggest gold mine ever. Apple doesn't want to get rid of it.

In fact, they even just released iAd which turns them into the Google (in terms of advertising) of mobile apps. They are going to become very rich because of this and probably continue to butt heads with Google. Side not - can you imagine if anyone other than Apple tried something like this? People would have a fit if MS pulled something like that.

On top of that flash on these devices doesn't really result in a good user experience either. Flash (with how the 98% of people are using it) wasn't made with these devices in mind. So is it really a big loss?

The fact is Flash *should* die. HTML 5 *should* become the standard. The only good thing flash provides is h264 streaming ability and these devices already are capable of hardware accelerating that (which is why youtube works for example).

Anyhow - it's very interesting how Apple is in a way dictating where the industry is going in this regard. They basically give the finger to Adobe and Google and they are still gaining steam. And will probably continue until they have some competition in the mobile market. So far it's not even close. Apple owns the mobile internet.

[Ensabahnur]

I agree with you about flash, that's not really a big deal.

Couple of questions:

Can these run more than one application at a time? (aka Can I chat and play a game at the same time?)

Can I hook up like a digital camera via USB to this, and upload pictures? (as far as I know it doesn't have a camera or webcam right?)

You can only install programs from the app store?

AT&T is the only 3G provider that will work with these?

Is it possible to tether this device to a cellphone?

[windigo]

Yeah, you can multi-task as soon as the fall update hits. Why this wasn't at launch baffles me.

"Can I hook up like a digital camera via USB to this, and upload pictures? (as far as I know it doesn't have a camera or webcam right?) "

Again, missing the point. Why would you do this? The iPad is a device to view content - not store a picture library. The concept we've been moving towards the last 10 years is to quit storing your crap locally. That's the whole idea behind a netbook too. If you want to do this - get a MacBook or a full sized laptop. Not an iPad or netbook. Either your using flash memory and you won't have the space for massive data or you'll have a HD and your data will not survive long if you actually use it on the go a lot. So put your photos on flickr or picassa or whatever - local network shares I'm sure are better here - and VIEW them on the iPad.

Someday we'll have something that does it all in the iPad form factor but we're not there yet. If it can't be done well - don't do it.


Yes, only appstore apps unless you jailbreak it (You can do A LOT with HTML5 though and it's local storage ability - you'll see this take off soon probably - it's happening a lot already).

I think ATT is the only 3g provider right now. I haven't looked into it much since the 3G one doesn't really interest me - too expesnive AND paying for data? pssshhh
I will say though the data plan is somewhat reasonable and I think it's contract free.

Tethering is a gray area. You can already for example tether it to an iphone since a jailbroken iphone can essentially turn into an access point. ATT doesn't like this which is the main hurdle for fully supported tethering. In terms of bluetooth tethering - I don't know.

[Cassiel]

Anyhow - it's very interesting how Apple is in a way dictating where the industry is going in this regard. They basically give the finger to Adobe and Google and they are still gaining steam. And will probably continue until they have some competition in the mobile market. So far it's not even close. Apple owns the mobile internet.

Well, first, you're vastly exaggerating Apple's advantage here. In point of fact the Blackberry has double the market share of the iPhone. So you're right that it's not even close, but wrong about who's actually in charge.

Second, we've seen this situation before and already know how it ends. Like water these things always find their level. When Microsoft was stomping all over everyone Google teamed up with Apple to take them on. Now that Apple has gotten too full of itself Google is teaming up with Microsoft instead.

As long as Google stays the kind of company it's been so far, insiders and educated people will pretty much always side with them. Their politics are basically the same as ours when it comes to keeping everything open and transparent. Seriously, we're talking about a company that just gave mainland China the finger for its restrictive policies.

The market will always drift toward open platforms, and Apple's M.O. has always been the opposite, which is why they still lag so far behind when it comes to personal computing. It won't take long for Google and Apple's other competitors to catch up to the iPhone feature-wise, and as soon as that happens it's game over for them, just like when they fought Microsoft over the PC market in the past.

[WatermelonMan]

How has Apple given the finger to Google? Didn't Google change Youtube to meet the HTML5 standard on mobile devices? I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious.

[windigo]

First off - Google is all for HTML5 so if they changed it, it wouldn't have been because of Apple at all.

Apple uses a special app that has nothing to do with HTML5 to view youtube. Google is fine because they can server video ads to anyone watching youtube.

Apple owns the mobile internet where people do stuff beyond checking email/handling their calendar.

The irony is that whenever I see a MS or Google employee doing a presentation it's always off a MacBook Pro.

Google already has more features than Apple when it comes to their smart phones. And look at the iPad - it's got less features than a 250$ netbook. Apple's ahead of the game here because they found out people don't care and are focusing on features people use.

"Now that Apple has gotten too full of itself Google is teaming up with Microsoft instead"

Where is Google teaming with MS? If anything MS and Apple are teaming up. Apple is starting to move away from Google search and possible go towards Bing. Most of this stuff is transparent through the iPhone. When you do a map search for example it doesn't say google maps for example. Apple is pretty smart in that regard - they aren't tied to anyone.

I don't see how Google and MS are friends at all. Google encourages Chrome use, making the Chromium OS, competes with MS Office, offers Android over Windows Mobile...

I'm just not seeing how Google and MS are teaming up against Apple at all here.

They both want a presence on Apple's products badly. Maybe that'll change eventually but right now Apple's in a position to basically ask for money in terms of who's search they will use. Ironic huh? Google PAYING Apple so that Apple will default to Google in mobile Safari.

I agree with you that eventually the open systems will win but I think we've got too long a way to go here. For a desktop there's no question because you don't really care who makes what for parts. There's lots of mixing and matching and customization. We're not there for phones and laptops or "pads". In this arena it's too important to have the hardware and software tightly coupled.

If the PC world can't figure out beating Apple at laptops yet (which have been around for a long time now) - how are they going to figure out beating them at smart phones?

I don't see Apple making the same mistake like it did in the personal computing days. That fact is they lost that battle because Windows was better and allowed you to do more. Now days the "insiders and educated people" tend to like OS X (maybe because it's built on unix which is more open and all that). Things aren't the same as the 80's now.

"Seriously, we're talking about a company that just gave mainland China the finger for its restrictive policies."

Yeah, I like Google.

[windigo]

Also - just occurred to me if you compare the iPhone vs Blackberry yeah the Blackberry wins in market share.

If you look at iPhone + iPod touch + iPad though - Apple is crushing them. Mobile internet doesn't necessarily mean using a cell network anymore.

I also don't think it will be long before the iPhone takes over Blackberry in numbers. Once Apple breaks away from AT&T they just opened another flood gate.

[Cassiel]

Google already has more features than Apple when it comes to their smart phones.

Perhaps that's why Android's market share was up 5.2% last quarter while Apple's was actually down .1%. But I was referring to general support, for example the number of apps.

And look at the iPad - it's got less features than a 250$ netbook. Apple's ahead of the game here because they found out people don't care and are focusing on features people use.

Ahead of what game? The iPad is the kind of product that will be successful with early adopters but likely never grow into the mainstream. In Malcolm Gladwell's words, "the attitude of the Early Adopters and the attitude of the Early Majority are fundamentally incompatible. Innovations don't just slide effortlessly from one group to the next. There is a chasm between them. All kinds of high-tech products fail, never making it beyond the Early Adopters, because the companies that make them can't find a way to transform an idea that makes perfect sense to an Early Adopter into one that makes perfect sense to a member of the Early Majority." People just don't need a tablet in the way that they need a phone.

Where is Google teaming with MS?

It could be the opposite, Apple teaming up with Microsoft against Google. There was an article in the New York Times about the falling out between Google's executives and Apple's asshat CEO that talked about it.

I agree with you that eventually the open systems will win but I think we've got too long a way to go here. For a desktop there's no question because you don't really care who makes what for parts. There's lots of mixing and matching and customization. We're not there for phones and laptops or "pads". In this arena it's too important to have the hardware and software tightly coupled.

To a certain extent we're there for laptops, but that's not even the issue. Opening the hardware up creates competition among manufacturers, which drives prices down. By volume Apple has always been and will continue to be dominated in every way imaginable. They're profitable because they charge gullible people a premium for the Apple name, which is exactly why I never have and never will give them a penny. When Steve Jobs dies, which I hope is sooner than later, I'll be at his funeral like those asshole religious protesters who berate the families of fallen soldiers. I'll dance on his grave and talk shit to his family. Fuck that guy and his exploitative business.

If the PC world can't figure out beating Apple at laptops yet (which have been around for a long time now) - how are they going to figure out beating them at smart phones?

What are you talking about? The last data I saw had Apple at the number 5 spot for laptops, far behind Dell and HP. It was Dell and HP each upwards of 40%, with the remaining 15% or thereabouts split between several companies, one of which was Apple. This was just last year. They're probably even lower now.

I don't see Apple making the same mistake like it did in the personal computing days. That fact is they lost that battle because Windows was better and allowed you to do more. Now days the "insiders and educated people" tend to like OS X (maybe because it's built on unix which is more open and all that). Things aren't the same as the 80's now.

We have very different views about what the word "educated" means.

If you look at iPhone + iPod touch + iPad though - Apple is crushing them. Mobile internet doesn't necessarily mean using a cell network anymore.

Nope. I don't know why you'd even throw the iPad in there, since it's brand new and hasn't sold much yet. In terms of the number of devices though, the answer is still no. If you mean web traffic aside from email and such, the answer is that yes, the iPhone is the single largest source. But its share of traffic has had zero growth in the last 6 months, while Android is now halfway to reaching it. In another year they'll be damn near even.

I also don't think it will be long before the iPhone takes over Blackberry in numbers. Once Apple breaks away from AT&T they just opened another flood gate.

Based on Apple's zero-to-negative growth in the last 3-6 months I doubt it.

[windigo]

RE: laptops

I'm talking about market share. I'm talking about the best laptop. It's a 15'' MacBook Pro. Why is Apple STILL ahead in laptop design??? Their touch pad setup beats everything out there - it's not even close. And it integrates perfectly with the OS.


RE: "It could be the opposite, Apple teaming up with Microsoft against Google."

That's what I said. Apple I don't think really cares though. They just want to sell the top devices and those devices will use whatever they feel like using whether its MS, Google, whatever.


Android is up because its new. Apple is stuck with AT&T and they need a bigger pool.

Agreed, the iPad won't be as successful as the iPhone/iPod. But it's just another area where they will assert themselves as the top tier product. The Kindle or the Barnes & Noble reader (for the name) or Sony's project, etc are all better e-book readers. Yet they are all toast now since the iPad is perceived to be superior.

Also, you can't really compare Apple's laptop numbers with everyone that easily. They don't sell netbooks and those numbers are inflating HP/Dell a lot. It's amazing Apple is where it is on that list given the price premium. It would be interesting to see the market share based on price tiers.

[Myth]

They just want to sell the most expensive devices and those devices will use whatever they feel like using whether its convenient and logical or not.

Fix'd.

Didn't we already have this thread? This thread was about netbook recommendations; the iPad is not a netbook nor would I ever consider buying one, especially considering my needs. Having to carry around a keyboard really, really defeats the point, and I would like to be able to multitask. And when I say would like to, I mean now. Not in six months (hypothetically). Also, I don't see the point in spending $600 when I could spend $300.


PS. The "x mac product is TOTALLY THE BEST!!!! " attitude always bothers the fuck out of me, because half the time it's completely wrong. And I love you, windigosir, but that sort of ejaculation always seems to carry with it, to me at least, an aftertaste of haughty superiority.

[windigo]

Yeah - the on topic discussion ended a while ago. It was get the netbook with the keyboard you like. (if it were for me it would be get the netbook that can install OS 10.6, as there are some models that work, but I kept that comment to myself)


Someday you'll see the light! OS X IS superior!

I use Macs and PC - that's the difference between me and the Mac haters here. I actually have a lot of experience with both. I'm not even at a Microsoft hater at all either. Windows 7 is solid, I like my Xbox360, etc. I'm just saying - when price isn't an option - Mac wins.

[Cassiel]

RE: laptops

I'm talking about market share. I'm talking about the best laptop. It's a 15'' MacBook Pro. Why is Apple STILL ahead in laptop design??? Their touch pad setup beats everything out there - it's not even close. And it integrates perfectly with the OS.

I'm talking about market share too. Apple isn't the market leader. They don't make the best laptop, and most of the features of their gimmicky multi-touch design are annoying as hell to use. The features that aren't annoying aren't specific to Apple; I encountered that stuff at least 8 years ago.

Android is up because its new. Apple is stuck with AT&T and they need a bigger pool.

Tautological. Of course it's up because it's new. If it had been around the whole time it would already have surpassed the iPhone and leveled off. The point is that it's growing and will continue to grow, while Apple has hit a wall.

Agreed, the iPad won't be as successful as the iPhone/iPod. But it's just another area where they will assert themselves as the top tier product. The Kindle or the Barnes & Noble reader (for the name) or Sony's project, etc are all better e-book readers. Yet they are all toast now since the iPad is perceived to be superior.

I don't know that any of this is true. The Kindle, at least, is very limited. I have no idea why anyone would ever buy one, especially with how tightly controlled the content is.

Also, you can't really compare Apple's laptop numbers with everyone that easily. They don't sell netbooks and those numbers are inflating HP/Dell a lot. It's amazing Apple is where it is on that list given the price premium. It would be interesting to see the market share based on price tiers.

Netbooks are bargain items. Apple doesn't sell them because it only sells products with inflated prices. Even if Apple sold netbooks nobody would buy them with their current business practices. That's not somehow a mark in Apple's favor, and it doesn't invalidate the data. On the contrary, it validates everything I've said from the beginning about Apple.

And it's not amazing that Apple is where it is. There have always been enough idiots in the world to support Apple's brand of consumer baiting, whether we're talking about collectors of fine wines or Ferraris. There's nothing surprising or special about it, just ethically wrong. Market share by price would simply confirm that Apple takes over at a point where the only remaining consumers are deeply, deeply stupid. Stupid like the people who pay $1000 for a bottle of alcohol or $100,000 for a car.

[Cassiel]

Hey guys. I'm shopping for a netbook, because I'm tired of dragging my behemoth desktop-replacement laptop everywhere. I was just going to get an Eee, as I am becoming a devoted follower of Asus, but any suggestions before I do so? Anybody have any experience with must-haves and have-nots?

Check the ratings.

http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory ... der=RATING

[Cassiel]

Haha, speaking of Apple's self-destructive closed culture.

[windigo]

Haha, speaking of Apple's self-destructive closed culture.

Yep, everyone sell the Apple stock, they are finished.

Also - I would definitely use any netbook you plan on buying first, don't go by reviews. Again, keyboard is the overriding factor here by far.

[Kaz]

They are stunting their own growth by being control freaks. Self-destructive is a proper qualifier.

[Kaz]

If you want a real life example look at how the Playstation broke into the game console market. At the time it was dominated by Nintendo and Sega and both were tight asses about what they would allow to be published, far beyond what is usually called quality control. Sony came in with superior hardware, little to no restrictions regarding content and gave back more royalties. Developers flocked en masse and along with them the customers. You never win by pissing off your content creators unless you have a nigh unbreakable mono/oligopoly.

[Cassiel]

Yep, everyone sell the Apple stock, they are finished.

"All of this has happened before."

[Myth]

Hey guys. I'm shopping for a netbook, because I'm tired of dragging my behemoth desktop-replacement laptop everywhere. I was just going to get an Eee, as I am becoming a devoted follower of Asus, but any suggestions before I do so? Anybody have any experience with must-haves and have-nots?

Check the ratings.

http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory ... der=RATING

I have, but first-hand experience from people I trust is always helpful as well.