Kickstarter

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Kickstarter

Postby yale_homo » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:01 pm

Cass,
What is an expected budget for a real version of TOB -- built on anything? I'd like to do a kickstarter project. I'm willing to put in 5-10k myself. I think there are enough people out there that remember TOB that would be willing to pony up.

(Am i crazy?)


(p.s. hi everybody!)
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Turkey_Slayer » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:09 pm

Sup, yale.

I'll throw in some beans if the kickstarter actually comes to pass. The biggest problem would probably be getting a proper team together, but I would fucking love to see it happen.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Cassiel » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:54 pm

Bubba I love you but you crazy. ARTS games have redonkulous development requirements on the MMO side of things, probably approaching a million* even if done lean. Plus the market is flooded with F2P.

* Well, depending on how you tackle it. Basically it's either a lot of money (hire other people), a lot of time (do it ourselves without quitting the day job), or somewhere in the middle (do it ourselves full-time). Or think of it as: pick any two of 1) fast, 2) good, and 3) cheap. Can't have all three.

The best chance of a standalone ToB would be to either persuade my boss to go for it, since he also owns a game company, or build a prototype and hit up YCombinator or equivalent. The former could conceivably be negotiated but the latter is supremely unlikely with Tencent and Valve tying up a good 90% of players.

P.S.: My company is currently working on a deal with the NYSE. If it goes through I should be in NYC sometime in the not-too-distant future. Let's make out.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:51 am

I don't like the many negative consequences today's f2p has on game design. And neither do I like the former business of having the customer front big money, with little to no firsthand demo beforehand, which can have negative consequences on game production as well. I wish there was a best of both worlds: The game is free; if you like it, you can buy a Club Membership once, and forever get all and any updates / additional content / support / treats. Basically the free game is an ultimate version of demo/shareware in the better days of yore, and the "membership" is simply buying the game and service as we knew it. The player can convince himself that not only the first half of the game is fun, and he can give it a future to fair and finite cost. This modification would make the old business competitive again with today's version of f2p. Kickstarter is being more and more usurped by shady industry; and I find projects repulsive that don't offer a working proof of concept / published demo / pre-alpha from the start; personally, I don't have an excessive life style, and yet I still don't have the excess money to take pity on fools all over the world, I need to know what they are getting and what I am getting if I spent it on that and not something more pressing around. In the case of ToB that's easy though, since you are not just anyone, and the maps you released are pretty much that demo, a supremely convincing one at that, enough to make us crazy. I'd even put some money up myself *gasp*, 'cause part of why I'm busy this year is to normalize my life a little bit, so that I have just enough social acceptance that institutions like banks service me in the least.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:32 am

Regarding the multiplayer model of ARTS, I wished these games would be handled more like FPS, in that it's decentralized to dedicated servers anyone can set up to his liking. Power to the people. Rather than global, the stat tracking / leagues / turneys would be server specific features easy to use for any operator, so the online experience becomes community conclaved again, with only a master list of running servers stringing it together globally, and each server can reserve slots for its known regulars when login is not password protected. Actually, why not have a server be capable of running more than one tracked match at once. Implementing all this is work too, but not nearly as much or as costly as MMO style. Even compared to FPS, the basic netcode of an ARTS is much simpler (because less critical, more raw, e.g. no compensation and prediction needed). If people want anything global cross league, let them organize that themselves via web; worked wonders in the past, even for games like Starcraft:Broodwar, with TeamLiquid and ICup and all, or if we set this up ourselves, it's still so much more efficient having Windigo set it up as web based like that, instead of in-game.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:10 am

So there you have a fair and realistic business and multiplayer model. And you know what, it still is batshit crazy, just as Cass explained. There is a crazy option that's not crazy impossible though. And that is seeing ToB as franchise instead of one definite game. You build a lineage of ToB games, that are different, yet in succession evolve towards a grander game, that means each game is self-suffiently built around an element that in eventual summation becomes your ultimate game. Each game's complexity builds upon the next, each game's success pays for the next, no work is wasted, since each game, while different, inherits much production of the last. The question fans have to ask themselves then is what is it really you love about ToB? The fact that it has been an ARTS to begin with? Or a brilliance that does not necessarily have to come in form of an ARTS, but maybe eventually will. For example, are you willing to buy a game called Tides of Blood: Tactics, short ToB:Tac, that is a round-based dungeon map, more in the likeliness of Desktop Dungeon but much superior, with a party of heroes, abilties and systems very much reminiscent to the original ToB? Concepts of units and abilities is what this game is built around at that time, framed in a basic app with rendering. After that, the next game could add RPG in the likeness of Final Fantasy, built around story that demands expanded maps and extensive gui. And maybe after that it's time for making it realtime multiplayer, maybe a Tower Defense kind of game first, and then ARTS. The first game is easily kickstarted by 5k, pretty good artwork to boot. I don't even think it should be Kickstarted, and whoever invests this much money should get it back on the sale, if the sale at least makes that. Depending on what sales bring in, the next is just as feasable, or is then Kickstarted, but this time at least with the earlier production to show. Achievable, that's something to think about, the question is who's interested to produce it so, who's interested to play it so, who's interested to pay it so. After all it still sounds far fetched enough to not take for granted.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:29 am

However, regardless of anyone's interest, a game that is like a Tides of Blood: Tactics, is definitely something that, if not he, I am slowly kicking off for fun as a pet project. I have settled for a visual style, usability mockups, etc; took me so much longer to figure those out than banging Labrats straight in, not to mention how much creative work is still left to do. But even though people throw money on all kinds of shit these days, I don't consider myself lucky, desperate or shameless enough to pick up on support and commerce, so I haven't even considered that. I have settled on things such that if in doubt I can do without. Makes doing it more enjoyable too, tbh, the thought of responsibility towards anyone, maybe being indebted, even if not legally, as long as I haven't pinned everything down to the last dot, would drive me crazy for bad, would inhibit me creatively. May as well drop at a Russian work camp in Sibira, that's more relaxed, and at least there I have a chance to meet Pussy Riot in person. Kinda sucks being a good guy, I guess it's only worse being a good girl. But funny too, I bet there are not many places where you can wave around 10k$, and be told why you shouldn't. That's tob.com for you.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby theboogleman » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:40 pm

Cassiel wrote:Bubba I love you but you crazy. ARTS games have redonkulous development requirements on the MMO side of things, probably approaching a million* even if done lean. Plus the market is flooded with F2P.

* Well, depending on how you tackle it. Basically it's either a lot of money (hire other people), a lot of time (do it ourselves without quitting the day job), or somewhere in the middle (do it ourselves full-time). Or think of it as: pick any two of 1) fast, 2) good, and 3) cheap. Can't have all three.

The best chance of a standalone ToB would be to either persuade my boss to go for it, since he also owns a game company, or build a prototype and hit up YCombinator or equivalent. The former could conceivably be negotiated but the latter is supremely unlikely with Tencent and Valve tying up a good 90% of players.

P.S.: My company is currently working on a deal with the NYSE. If it goes through I should be in NYC sometime in the not-too-distant future. Let's make out.


Where exactly do you work?
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Cassiel » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:01 pm

I keep it under wraps because InfoSec company + Anon supporter does not compute.

Also lawl at ARTS. That does sound better than MOBA. But then if it's a Fantasy Action RTS...
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby theboogleman » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:49 pm

I find it funny how you're working in IT now. it's like TOB molded your future.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Cassiel » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:44 pm

If I hadn't started coding I'd be finishing up my Ph.D. this year and taking a shitty Associate Professor position at some liberal arts college where people make a name for themselves doing important "work" on things like 21st-century American prison literature and 19th-century women's travel writing. No thanks.
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