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TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:10 pm
by SubNoize
When Dota2 releases, along with the SDK and hopefully map editor would you ever try your hands at morphing Dota2 into TOB2?

I guess it all depends on how VALVe let people edit their games and what custom map control they'll give them but seeing how far some of the other games get modded it doesn't sound impossible.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:12 am
by Kaz
One year later and still no custom game support.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:10 am
by Zeuter

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:17 am
by Zeuter
By the way, if this actually becomes reality, I'll definitely help out if we need more programmers.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:23 am
by Kaz
I'd first mess around with it, recreate Turf War most likely.

Something that worries me is how they basically reimplemented every single dumb/annoying war3 engine quirk. Hope that shit isn't hardcoded.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:25 pm
by Cassiel
The Source toolchain is rubbish. In its current state, it will never attract modding on the scale that WC3 did. Two consequences:

* The chances of anyone doing interesting things with a Dota 2 mod are greatly reduced. Modding is a numbers game; it takes a lot of duds before a gem emerges. The size and support system of a community are hugely important here.

* The high barrier to entry on the coding side filters out non-programmers, but most programmers are shitty game designers. Every successful WC3 map was made by non-programmers[1], and while some of them had a lot of code, none of them had much engineering[2].

NB: The fact that it's apparently taking Valve so long to implement things that have already been designed and proved out in WC3 tells you everything you need to know about how Source rates in terms of productivity. Normally the development process gets hung up iterating design, not implementation.

1. Eul did everything but spawns through SLK files. I didn't even start programming until halfway through N. Guinsoo and IceFrog both sucked at programming. The list goes on.

2. ToB O had the most engineering of any WC3 map, but it makes no sense to retroactively include it in the success of earlier versions. It came far too late, long past the time when a new map could build an audience and succeed.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:13 pm
by gandalf37
Zeuter wrote:By the way, if this actually becomes reality, I'll definitely help out if we need more programmers.

If you need another programmer I can throw in my hat as well. I know I wasn't part of the original team or what not, but I can help now.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:47 pm
by Cassiel
You guys should've spoken up when SC2 launched!

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:18 pm
by o
Is the SC2 mod scene even relevant?

I feel like modding has died ever since UDK and Unity started picking up speed.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:22 pm
by Zeuter
That was one month before I started my first CS class.

Can't say that I have more hope for Source 2. Valve's monetization designers have been able to experiment on their games for years now and know where the money is at. Allowing modding in its old form is simply no longer profitable for the companies making games worth modding.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:09 pm
by gandalf37
I thought with how bad the custom maps were handled in SC2 at launch and Blizzard's new attitude of "we want all teh monies so we own what you make", it was the general opinion that it wasn't worth making anything for it. I didn't even buy HotS so I have no idea if they handle custom maps any better now.

Plus, I had other stuff going on at the time.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:40 pm
by Cassiel
Blizzard has always claimed ownership of mods, but if that claim were enforceable, Dota 2 wouldn't exist.

o wrote:Is the SC2 mod scene even relevant?

I feel like modding has died ever since UDK and Unity started picking up speed.

Nope, not relevant, but that has little to do with UDK or Unity. The number of people who will jump into one of these bloated engines and create a bunch of content from scratch is a rounding error next to the number of people who will jump into an existing game and repurpose the content that's already there.

There isn't much overlap between the two groups anyway, e.g. none of the people who had success with WC3 modding would have gone with UDK or Unity had those been available at the time. The learning curve for modding is reasonable enough to attract the equivalent of "impulse buyers," and the short development cycles mean nearly instant gratification.

Of course the other big reason SC2 modding never took off, aside from the tools being shite, is that all the genres that drove RTS modding in the past -- TDs, MOBAs, etc. -- have since blossomed into standalone games. We don't need modders to produce them anymore.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:42 pm
by Zeuter
As a child, WC3 modding was a godsend. With little money to spend on games, it provided you with a practically limitless flow of free content. This within a community that would otherwise be scattered over dozens of games, but was centralised here. Although not all maps were that great, they were still better than most of the f2p shovelware you see these days.

In a sense, steam almost does the same. But in steam, you'll have to pay for almost all of the content. And that's terrible.

Most of the mods of any consequence have been those in RTS games and shooters: TD, AoS, TF, CS. It's a shame WoW was never truly moddable - imagine the bizarre creations that would've been spawned from that. If singleplayer RPGs are any indication, we'd see a lot more porn mods (disregarding that naked WoW mod). Onyxia fucking a car with her dragon dick, the possibilities are endless.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:35 am
by SubNoize
Cassiel wrote:/snip



Bump @Cassiel have you had a play with the Dota2 Workshop Tools?

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/disc ... ?appid=570

Is there a possibility or no chance at all that we'll see TOB2?

Edit; Also wow at almost 2 years exactly since my OP.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:28 pm
by Cassiel
Highly unlikely. There's no money in games.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:38 pm
by SubNoize
Cassiel wrote:Highly unlikely. There's no money in games.


What if Valve do something similar to a Compendium but for the maps or rather Operations from CS:GO for map makers and that brings in $$..

TOB was just such a better game than Dota and offered so much more imo. It's sad not not see it continued.

Thanks for the reply mate, hopefully you change your mind when there is more information available or perhaps someone decides to pick up where you left off.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:36 pm
by Zeuter
Cassiel wrote:Highly unlikely. There's no money in games.


There's money in f2p games. The competition is mostly incompetent, too. Competing with a AAA studio at the mercy of their engine though, that'd just be moronic. If you'd ever want to make a commercial version of ToB, you'd need your own tools.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:06 pm
by RageAgainstVoid
eh, comparison/standard/reliability/opportunity. games ain't the best way if you know sumthin better, and why settle for anything less than the best deal you can get.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:13 pm
by Cassiel
Zeuter wrote:There's money in f2p games.

Literally, sure. Just not compared to Silicon Valley tech.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:53 am
by Zeuter
What league are you playing in if $100k/day isn't much? Or if you look at the top companies, $1.2million/day. I wouldn't mind some ideas for a new venture. :^)

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:41 am
by RageAgainstVoid
For comparison, you don't need go further than looking what crowdfunding projects are the most successful, on average and total. Last time I checked it was life appliance tech and sorts of hardware.

But think in terms of the average regular jobs, too, not just the few cinderella stories of top dog start-ups whose run-away success does not come from competence and quality alone. In the valley, worst case, you still get to work engineering for money in excess of 100k/year entry, to nice conditions. The worst case in gaming is you're close to dead, the average is sleeping in a trashcan whenever you get a lucky break from sweatshop. Thus, even when it comes to start-ups, on a failure you can recuperate much faster and nicer, and prepare for the next by working some solid job for a year. Get-going or failing in gaming is a much tougher life.

Frankly, when it comes to engineering on the back end, working on games or a Google is not much different. Working games is not necessarily more creative and fun in the reality of that craft. I do think that ideally and overall, it has the best potential for interesting intellectuality, and Cass is the most fit person I know to head that up. We all would love to see him workin the next gang-busters game. but realistically, it's very difficult to present him a case in his own best interest as a friend, considering where he's at now. Who knows what happens when he finally attains financial independence. We could have some crazy fun 'round here.

When it comes to you and me, we might say, doesn't matter, we beat the odds because we're super special and stuff. Being convinced of your work is a healthy attitude. When it comes to starting up your own work, you should do what you're most convinced of and inspired in, what you know best, because everything relies on your self. Personally, I just don't know what else to do, I just can do what I do, the best bet I got, for my situation and personality, it works fair enough. If I could I'd prolly do like him though. Maybe one day it will all come together just fine, for all of us, since I got nothing else to believe in, this will have to do. it's that or alcohol.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:12 am
by Cassiel
Zeuter wrote:What league are you playing in if $100k/day isn't much? Or if you look at the top companies, $1.2million/day. I wouldn't mind some ideas for a new venture. :^)

That would be big money for a person, absolutely, but it isn't for a company. There's also a world of difference between revenue and profit.

I'm interested in revisiting games, but it will be at least 5 years before I'm retired with Fuck You money. I can't imagine returning to games before then, because a) no game company will pay me anywhere near what I make in security (I blew way past this number a while ago), and b) starting my own game company would mean delaying retirement/freedom and having to worry about the bottom line. If I do return to games, I don't want to have to think about the money side of it at all.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:03 pm
by Turkey_Slayer
Fucking psychology. In my specialty (clinical neuropsychology), I'll be damn lucky if I make 150k a year after 10 years in private practice unless I sell my soul to lawyers to lie and cheat in court on a regular basis.

At least I find the work interesting. I wouldn't last long with the shit you guys do.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:09 pm
by Cassiel
Who guys? I think we all do different things. Security at least is a blast. It's incredibly technical, the politics are interesting, I won the coworker lottery, and I get to go fun places (Black Hat in Vegas two weeks ago, NASA last week, leaving for San Diego tomorrow and staying at a beach house through next Sunday). Your field is plenty interesting; I would only be frustrated at how slowly things progress compared to software.

Re: TOB on the source engine?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:41 pm
by RageAgainstVoid
Cass, it's still really hard getting used to that you're working security now. cracks me up every time. you darknet scoundrel, gamecrack hooligan and anarcho-capitalist, ensuring law and order now, keeping us and the system save. We have a world renown official organization of white hat hackers here, called Chaos Computer Club. They do a couple big events of international significance too. Maybe one day you'll get sent on a trip and say hello. =D

Turkey, you know it's a special kind of awesome sauce that one of our mods here is into clinical neuropsychology. kinda cracks me up too. Don't worry man, you got a golden future ahead in these crazy times of internets. everyone knows tons of people in dire need for your services, namely everyone else. I'll send them all to you, and in return you give me some sittings too, ok. tough as nails work, man. =p