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Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:09 pm
by Merlin
Let's get some discussion about the current state of the map going.

I'll start us off. I like the changes to the towers, but I think their positioning needs to change to better defend the expansions. Here's an image of what I think would be ideal. Diamonds are Arrow Towers, Hexagons are Cannon Towers, and you can guess the rest.

Image

Thoughts about this or anything else related to the map?

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:43 pm
by harveymudd
Can we get this in autocad?

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:48 pm
by RageAgainstVoid
Asap. So it's true, ToB's layout is a blueprint for microchips running The World.

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:30 am
by I_dohknow
I wonder if u can put a tower that hits multiple targets!

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:23 am
by Boolerian
That would be a good solution to protect the spawning structures.
Could be a tower upgrade.

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:11 pm
by Merlin
I've been thinking about ways to combat cheese, so I'll share my thoughts.

I call it: segmented health with rapid health regeneration, or SHRHR...?

What that means is that buildings regenerate HP rapidly, but stop once they reach a cap that is set by the health segment. If a tower gets damaged below that segment threshold, then they can only regenerate up to that point. I think I can explain better with examples.

Let's say towers have health segmented into 1/3 chunks, so 600/1200/1800. If a tower gets damaged to 1450, it will regen to full, but if it gets damaged to 850, it will only regen to 1200.

Another example: keeps are segmented into 1/4 HP chunks, so 1000/2000/3000/4000. If a keep gets damaged to 2800, it will regen to 3000, and you probably get it so I'll move on.

Of course health regeneration would only start after the building hasn't taken damage for a short while. How soon after, how fast they regen, and how many segments there are could be determined with a bit of testing, but I think it's best to have a small number of segments and fast regeneration because this promotes large attacks, and makes small cheesy attacks less effective.

You could display these things on the map using the buildings' mana, assuming it's possible to trigger these types of fractions. You could also add visual queues, like smoke and fire, and maybe some type of event when a building falls below a threshold.

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:49 pm
by Dragon_Blade
I like this idea a lot!

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:58 pm
by Merlin
Thanks. :)

Just played a game where two players desynced. I alt-tabbed and contacted them immediately on my bot, and learned that they both have non-English WC3 clients (German, and French), while everyone else still in the game had English clients.

edit: I didn't want to speculate about the cause, but the fact that there are fewer desyncs, and the ones that are happening are much later in the game suggest that this is probably a unique (or close) destructible object. Or it's tucked away somewhere remote that doesn't get any action 'til the late game.

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:27 pm
by Merlin
I think I found it. Toro Moove's SH into the trees on upper mid, between the undead towers and the special item vendor at exactly 28:42, the moment the desync occurs.

DotA Replay Manager was really useful in helping me find this.

edit: Found the exact same thing in another desync from last night. I Phoenix Wake the same spot (upper mid UD towers) at around 6:00 and a French player desyncs at the exact same time the trees go down.

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:03 pm
by Cassiel
Yeah, found 'em.

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:10 pm
by Merlin
Cool. I have a new one from just a few minutes ago with a German player, if you want it.

I think I'll just remove Europe from my bot until this gets fixed. That should eliminate 99% of the remaining desyncs. :p

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:03 pm
by Cassiel
There were two tree types I forgot existed, so the fix wasn't implemented for them. Should be good to go now. 1.28 is up.

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:19 pm
by Merlin
Awesome! :D

Changed the title of the thread so I don't have to start a new one.

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:05 pm
by nooK
So this runs stable now? Time to reinstall wc3 I guess..

Any chance we see some work on the items?

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:00 pm
by Cassiel
An actual item tree would in theory be the next thing I do. But there are still serious bugs to address, too. Assists are broken, right? And buffs sometimes stick on units after death? And in long games there's still that occasional frame rate crash?

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:04 pm
by Merlin
The biggest bugs have been dealt with, I feel.

The remaining ones are:
  • Player 2 still gets random assists.
  • Weird buff bugs, like perma-slow on spawns.
  • Spawns getting team color changed to red when they spawn (or some other color sometimes). I think DR might be responsible for some reason.
  • Possibly something wrong with the FPS. It could just be too many units for WC3 to handle. I haven't seen the sort of FPS crashes that there were in earlier versions in a long time though.
  • Spells like Pain Ward and Lunar Tides will stop dealing damage occasionally, and then start working again later.

There are a few things I haven't seen since I started playing again a little while ago, like witches with catapult projectiles, but I assume they're still there.

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:50 pm
by Dragon_Blade
Merlin wrote: like witches with catapult projectiles,


I feel like you should leave this

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:38 pm
by WatermelonMan
has anyone else noticed that your hero sometimes won't deal damage with his regular attack?

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:46 pm
by Merlin
I've seen Pain Ward do this several times, and Lunar Tides once, but never regular attacks.

Re: Feedback - 1.27

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:26 am
by Dr.Willy
Merlin wrote:I've been thinking about ways to combat cheese, so I'll share my thoughts.

I call it: segmented health with rapid health regeneration, or SHRHR...?

What that means is that buildings regenerate HP rapidly, but stop once they reach a cap that is set by the health segment. If a tower gets damaged below that segment threshold, then they can only regenerate up to that point. I think I can explain better with examples.

Let's say towers have health segmented into 1/3 chunks, so 600/1200/1800. If a tower gets damaged to 1450, it will regen to full, but if it gets damaged to 850, it will only regen to 1200.

Another example: keeps are segmented into 1/4 HP chunks, so 1000/2000/3000/4000. If a keep gets damaged to 2800, it will regen to 3000, and you probably get it so I'll move on.

Of course health regeneration would only start after the building hasn't taken damage for a short while. How soon after, how fast they regen, and how many segments there are could be determined with a bit of testing, but I think it's best to have a small number of segments and fast regeneration because this promotes large attacks, and makes small cheesy attacks less effective.

You could display these things on the map using the buildings' mana, assuming it's possible to trigger these types of fractions. You could also add visual queues, like smoke and fire, and maybe some type of event when a building falls below a threshold.

Isnt this basically a complicated version of many small towers?

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:02 pm
by Merlin
Nope. First, AOE is far more effective vs. lots of small, weak towers. Second, every time you pick off one of those small towers, you lower the amount of damage an expansion can dish out. Third, having buildings that are easy to destroy is just begging for cheese.

My idea is for strong towers that are resistant to small hit and run tactics, but still fall when legitimately under siege. It's about shaping player behavior with passive game mechanics. It's not a cure-all though, cause it only addresses one type of cheese. I wrote about the types last year in another feedback thread:


  1. A tactic involving one or more players suddenly attacking an undefended enemy structure with the intention of destroying it before the enemy has the time to react. Usually performed as a last-ditch effort, or timed to coincide with a diversionary attack at another location.
  2. A strategy involving short and rapid, but sustained bursts of aggression against enemy structures with the overall goal of causing maximum damage while minimizing personal risk by staying back and only exposing oneself while casting.

To counter the first type, we'll probably need an item tree and further hero tweaking before looking at it again. I'm not sure if BR would be so effective against buildings if he didn't have access to the current set of items.

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:15 am
by Viikuna-
Yo, Merlin, when are you hosting this thing and where? I wants to play too.

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:11 am
by I_dohknow
Viikuna- wrote:Yo, Merlin, when are you hosting this thing and where? I wants to play too.


He host at clan o0o USEast.

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:09 am
by Merlin
Yeah, I'm either in clan o0o, clan fots, or channel tob, usually by 6pm EST. My bot idles in clan o0o. Try whispering Psychobot if you want a game earlier, and I'll log on if I'm there.

Re: Feedback - 1.28

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:22 pm
by Viikuna-
I played tob and it was cool.