Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Cassiel » Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:34 pm

Butthead will never be ground targeted. Ground targeting could be used to run from a fight, and the BR does not run from fights.

Instead, homing could simply be removed. Butthead would still target a unit, but it would only charge the location of the target at the time of casting. If the target moved, it would miss.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Death » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:13 pm

Witch Doctor's perfectly acceptable. You're simply trying to place him into the niche of other heroes.

Why are you comparing VGS to wake skills? Witch Doctor already has VASTLY superior lane control and damage in a battle with Pain Ward. You're trying to compare a debuff here to a damage spell for what reason?

Andddd also why the comparison to BR? The heroes serve nearly polar opposites in terms of roles.

You seem to be wanting Witch Doctor to play a different role than he already is, specifically that of a disabler. Leave that job up to other heroes who are more geared toward that occupation, such as DotM, BR, or etc.

WD is a wonderful blend of control that requires a hint more finesse to play, yes, but the results are absolutely astounding. A good WD can turn the tides more than almost any other character, the only ones that are above him being the ones that are ridiculous (Such as Porph, Malf, etc.). Giving WD such a huge buff to VGS makes him as stupidly easy to play as Battlerouser with his 2 twos and attack gameplay style.

It's insulting that you say he can't even push whenever he dominates the side lanes with relative ease. So long as you put a Pain Ward down and have VGS & Juju on the ready, any enemy that comes for you is more than likely going to end up taking a lot more damage than you would out of the ordeal. It's WD's unique pushing style that maybe you have trouble with him, because unlike heroes like BLM or Jean, WD is extremely defensive in nature and in order to deal with opponents, he requires them to take the aggressive stance. He can't be overtly aggressive without an ally, but he certainly punishes other heroes for being aggressive stronger than anyone else.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Merlin » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:38 pm

Cassiel wrote:Instead, homing could simply be removed. Butthead would still target a unit, but it would only charge the location of the target at the time of casting. If the target moved, it would miss.

Wouldn't that make it crap for chasing a fleeing hero?
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Viikuna- » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:14 pm

Yep. And it would add some aiming aspect to the skill, no? Youd have to target guys who are not moving.

And you can already do some nice targetting work by targgetting some enemy behind your main target. Your main target gets probably pushed by only little away from your dash line, and you bounced back right next to him.

You should like always target the last guy in the enemy team. Just dash through them all.


Also you gotta love how Browbeat can be used to dodge spells. 100% spell miss is way cooler than invulnerability, because when you have little patience to wait for the right moment, you can make your enemies to waste a shitloads of spells to your leaping dwarf.


BR is an awesome hero. He doesnt need changing. We just need sashi and leto back, with their cool ground targetted winds and godspeeds.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Merlin » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:38 pm

Viikuna- wrote:Yep. And it would add some aiming aspect to the skill, no?

Not really, no. A single-target nuke that can miss is still pretty much fire and forget.

Viikuna- wrote:He doesnt need changing.

Come play with us so I can change your mind about this.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Viikuna- » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:45 am

Well, he needs some balancing, but not any real big changes for spell behaviour. I personally love him the way he is.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Merlin » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:15 pm

I'm generally opposed to single-target spells that can miss for the reason that it doesn't actually increase the level of aiming required. Whether you hit or miss is largely no longer up to you; it's up to your target. I wrote about player frustration in a previous post and I think it's important that BR still feels like he has a decent chance at hitting his target. Being unable to crash into a target that's fleeing in a straight line doesn't fit, in my opinion.

Having said that, I have seen this mechanic work pretty well for JEW, so who knows. Maybe if instead of BR charging to the target's location at the time of casting, he could still home-in, but with limits on how quickly he can veer. I still think ground targeting is the best mechanic, but that seems like it's out of the question.

By the way, I think JEW should be able to miss (and waste the cooldown). Not because it's imba the way it is now, but because watching Jimmy chomp on air once a second, while waddling after the fleeing hero like a retard makes me sad.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Viikuna- » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:19 pm

Poor retard jimmy needs to eat moar brains.



( Sorry, Im in the mood for posting some useless shit. )
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Drain_Pipe » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:03 pm

Death wrote:Witch Doctor's perfectly acceptable. You're simply trying to place him into the niche of other heroes.


And that niche would be? Good? Powerful? Offensive? Yeah that "niche" has every other hero in it.

Death wrote:Why are you comparing VGS to wake skills? Witch Doctor already has VASTLY superior lane control and damage in a battle with Pain Ward. You're trying to compare a debuff here to a damage spell for what reason?

Andddd also why the comparison to BR? The heroes serve nearly polar opposites in terms of roles.


I was comparing its challenge in casting to other point targeting skills (almost all of which are line dmg spells), and I threw in BRs skills as an addition just to show how vastly superior of a skill it was, period, mainly because it was single targeting and could not be dodged under most circumstances. Take away the damage and leave just the stun and it's still better than GVS. As an additional point, GVS is the only aoe point targeting spell that has a delayed effect after cast point (Jean's is the other point aoe targeting spell but has no missile before the effect sets in)

Death wrote:You seem to be wanting Witch Doctor to play a different role than he already is, specifically that of a disabler. Leave that job up to other heroes who are more geared toward that occupation, such as DotM, BR, or etc.


Tell me how a disable spell doesn't help for defense? Elaborate, please. In all honesty, if he was meant to push, this would proably damage or do something like that. If he's meant as a defensive caster, then he shouldn't have to throw himself right into battle to become effective. All 4 of his abilities require that he be close to his enemies/allies in order for them to work well. PW has a melee cast range, GVS only works on heroes rushing you, TDCD has a low enough AoE that heroes can attack and stun you from outside its range, and Juju Bees needs you to be near allies, whom are in the thick of battle.

If he's meant to be a pusher, then his skills are almost properly set up for that, but he needs some better ranged assault. If he's meant to be defensive, then he's in need of some major tweaking. And he's nowhere near the role of disable.

Death wrote:WD is a wonderful blend of control that requires a hint more finesse to play, yes, but the results are absolutely astounding. A good WD can turn the tides more than almost any other character, the only ones that are above him being the ones that are ridiculous (Such as Porph, Malf, etc.). Giving WD such a huge buff to VGS makes him as stupidly easy to play as Battlerouser with his 2 twos and attack gameplay style.


Here, you're not arguing the facts that i brought up about the skill mechanic, you're just saying how good the WD can be in the right situation (nothing pertaining to the ac tual skill being useful). Fucking every other skill is more consistent and yields a better effect for the mana cost. Finesse? Who cares about finesse. I want functional. And the only way he turns the tides is with BB+PW+Juju Bees. THAT counters some things, but the other 2 abilities don't counter anything, except a spawn rush.

Death wrote:It's insulting that you say he can't even push whenever he dominates the side lanes with relative ease. So long as you put a Pain Ward down and have VGS & Juju on the ready, any enemy that comes for you is more than likely going to end up taking a lot more damage than you would out of the ordeal. It's WD's unique pushing style that maybe you have trouble with him, because unlike heroes like BLM or Jean, WD is extremely defensive in nature and in order to deal with opponents, he requires them to take the aggressive stance. He can't be overtly aggressive without an ally, but he certainly punishes other heroes for being aggressive stronger than anyone else.


1) You don't read anything I post, apparently, because pushing is the only thing I praise him for. The only problem is that he can't do it in team rushes, or when there is more than 1 hero in his presence. He lacks the girth and high vitality of BLM, and is nowhere near as mobile as jean is. Jean is a much more effective pusher whether heroes are there or not. The biggest reason is due to the fact that she has no channeling requirements on her damaging spells and all of her spells affect towers.

2) You say that he punishes aggressive players, with what? Pain wards? The only skill I praise on him? (aside from juju bees) You keep outlining all of his power and ability, but all of those things come from one of his skills, and its not even the skills I'm criticizing. Tell me how TDCD punishes aggressive players? hmm? It doesn't even reach attacking ranged and can be stopped with a stun, ending the effect instantly with 0 repercussions. And GVS alone does not punish enemies unless they're stupid enough to rush your whole team without backup. The shortlived 4 second effect that only becomes somewhat decent late game doesn't allow much additional punishment for most players, who'd probably have been able to nuke the shit out of you before the damn skull hit the ground.

Overall you haven't given me an actual reason why GVS is good. I've already admitted that in small well timed scenarios it can be effective, but that's not even fair for the amount of hoops you have to go through to make it useful.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Death » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:39 pm

In all honesty, you can't legitimately compare any hero in this to another. Each has their own little destination, and comparing skills doesn't work too well either. This isn't DotA. If you want a stun on every skill, go play DotA. If you want a stun plus another fifty other effects, go back to your AoM.

If WD had a disable, he has the ability to become extremely offensive in nature. Disables are greatly more potent than a semi-disable. With a semi-disable, the enemy can still dance around the room to chance you, which is something that WD, out of all heroes, can afford. Playing ring-around-the-pain-ward is simply a skill that you need to utilize as WD, just like with Inquisitor, you have to learn how to use Trial by Fire since you can't exactly spam it or else it isn't effective.

With VGS in its current state, Witch Doctor is perfectly balanced, before whenever it was a stun, he was untouchable and no one would bother diving to attack him. The reason WD is a defensive caster is precisely that he needs to be in the thick of things to be super duper effective. It requires the enemy to COME to you. If you had sniping range like Jimmy's Meat Hook or Jean's Phoenix Wake, that allows you to play on the offensive. WD works best through his punishment of aggressors. Pop down a Pain Ward as they charge towards you, once they realize their mistake, they have trouble running due to VGS or even a double VGS courtesy of Reliquary.

TDCD isn't normally part of WD's combo to deal with heroes, but it can be extremely deadly, especially with the amplification from VGS and the fact that it DOES NOT STUN. It works extremely well together, especially against heroes with AoE (Pory, Jimmy, Jean, BLM, etc). Popping on a VGS to amplify the damage and they hit a single AoE nuke and the whole joint blows up, which wouldn't happen if the enemy was stunned. Try popping this combo off against a hero or two who you know are about to use a nuke like that, since each skeleton does 200-300 damage depending on your level and if you have Blood Meter & Spellpower, which simply makes it even more effective.

I say that he punishes aggressive players with not only PW, but VGS as well. If you had read, you would have noted the combination I had previously mentioned. On top of that, Juju Bees allows him make sure he's the one that stays up in terms of health, not the opponent.

Granted, WD does work well in a team scenario, especially w/ VGS in its state, but I seem to have forgotten the part where the game isn't about coordination. How often do you go into a fight in a game where you don't focus heroes at a time? Even in pubs, people focus heroes, so it isn't hard for a WD player, unless he has some sort of mental handicap, to be able to predict the target and shoot off a VGS as your team jumps his bones and make them die faster.

Majority of your arguments are talking about WD in a single hero scenario, questioning the usefulness of his skills for 1v1 gameplay. Due to the extremely powerful nature of PW, you almost never find yourself on the defensive, so it is a little useless in that manner, because you're already at the opponent's base and they're sitting in their fountain healing or standing back from the AoE where they can't touch you.

If it's a team situation, I've already discussed how it should be used, and if, on the rare scenario that WD is losing his lane or being chased because he cannot hold his ground immediately, VGS comes into play wonderfully as I have stated and pointed out several times.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Mengde » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:24 pm

So I'm here to talk about something important, lady and gentlemen.

Le fromage.

Just got out of a game where I (malf) and Dom (BR) basically won the game by cheesing. We lost both our expos, but I GWTW'd into south with trees to finish it off. BR walked into the north, burned BB and Redrum, and took out half its HP in like one run. We ended up doing the same thing to the main. One hero can't stop this. Two, maybe, but then the rest of your team is elsewhere probably winning the fights against the diminished numbers of the rest of your enemies.

I don't even know where to begin when it comes to fixing this. Does it need a fix even? Should cheese be a part of the game? Plenty of wars have been won with underhanded tactics. Is it even underhanded? I really don't know how to approach this. I just know I felt dirty after the fact. Thoughts?
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Turkey_Slayer » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:41 pm

I'd say about 50% of the games I've played have had some sort of expo cheese. To be honest I'm starting to get frustrated wasting all that time attempting to win an expo the old-fashioned way and either end up having to defend it every other minute or let it die.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Merlin » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:56 pm

We were talking about this on Sunday.

---game had just finished---

[RAV] well everyone, not to rain on the parade
[Fuhy] dr with 6boots is uber
[RAV] but cheesing needs to get fixed
[Turkey_Slayer] Jah
[Turkey_Slayer] Expos are just a cheesefest these days
[Psychokinesis] i thought so too at first
[RAV] it was a pretty unworthy end tbh
[Turkey_Slayer] There's no point
[Psychokinesis] but its more or less controllable
[Psychokinesis] probably less than more, though
[RAV] look
[RAV] it's not about that
[Turkey_Slayer] RAV go write a thoughtful post and then I'll make a short comment supporting you :P
[RAV] it's that the gameplay rapidly devolves
[RAV] into somehting not fun anymore
[RAV] ToB O is about smart combat
[Fuhy] wongo was healing everytime it resets
[RAV] not creeping around the map backstabbing buildings
[Titus01] :D
[RAV] that's why the vault was removed
[RAV] it's not very samrt play either
[Turkey_Slayer] That's what we're saying RAV
[RAV] it simply doesn't compare and doesn't belong into the game
[Turkey_Slayer] But how do you fix it?
[Turkey_Slayer] Repairs?
[Fuhy] remove the expos
[Fuhy] lol
[Psychokinesis] i suggested something smart a while ago
[Turkey_Slayer] ew
[Psychokinesis] but i forget what
[RAV] there are plans
[RAV] as usual there are tons of things not done yet
[Fuhy] make buildings tougher?
[RAV] and not sure they are getting done
[RAV] it's more indirect things
[PlasticLetters] What if they couldn't be attacked unless all the towers are killed first?
[PlasticLetters] That might help some
[Fuhy] mages n witches own towers
[Psychokinesis] killing jean to stop flare is a step in the right direction imo
[RAV] there are many gameplay components missing that would get rid of this
[RAV] thing is merlin
[RAV] it's just about wittling down one hit at a time
[RAV] it's boring
[Turkey_Slayer] Maybe a repair option for keeps only
[Fuhy] they should have an item
[RAV] and since there are so many more ways and connections now
[Fuhy] called mobile fountain
[RAV] you can't control them all while still playing a nice offensive game
[Turkey_Slayer] That costs straight gold
[Turkey_Slayer] Lorelai
[RAV] well I have to talk to them about this issue
[RAV] if the other game components make it in
[RAV] there needs to be a temporary fix
[Turkey_Slayer] Tell them to remove boots, though
[RAV] some little something
[Turkey_Slayer] It honestly is a part of that problem, too
[RAV] I'm not toally convinced of that yet
[PlasticLetters] or cap it at two, 6 boots is just crazy
[Fuhy] you need to embrace it turk
[Turkey_Slayer] Considering it improves quicker movement throughout the map
[Fuhy] 6 boots ftw
[Turkey_Slayer] Just cap at one
[Fuhy] imo
[Turkey_Slayer] imo
[Titus01] 1 is enough
[Psychokinesis] i like the sprint mechanic
[Fuhy] dr was dodging blueshifts with 6 boots
[RAV] though you sacrifice alot of staying power, and if cheesing is made away with, the movement bonus is not all that dominating anymore
[Psychokinesis] that should stay
[Turkey_Slayer] It doesn't really matter
[Turkey_Slayer] It will all be cheesed
[Turkey_Slayer] A team that can't cheese can't win
[Psychokinesis] its true. we're very good at playing the game in ways it wasnt intended to be
[Fuhy] u speaketh the gospel turk
[RAV] when I say cheese
[RAV] I mean building cheese
[Turkey_Slayer] Me too
[RAV] any other cheese that belongs to combat is welcome
[Fuhy] well we didnt start cheesing till we lost top expo
[RAV] well as I just said
[Psychokinesis] how do you cheese a hero? :o
[RAV] there are ways to soften that
[Turkey_Slayer] I was just thinking
[Turkey_Slayer] What about
[Fuhy] 80percent of that game was played the way it was meant to be wasnt it?
[Turkey_Slayer] well
[Psychokinesis] i think so
[Turkey_Slayer] What if Keeps had added HP for the towers remaining
[RAV] well I don't think that's a good excuse, but OK
[Fuhy] well u can really stop cheese easily if we have airships
[Fuhy] but we dont
[RAV] we don't
[Turkey_Slayer] WHAT ABOUT MY IDEA
[Fuhy] so we shld add them back in!
[Psychokinesis] you also have to consider that airships were used to cheese in N
[Titus01] but more for anti cheesing
[Turkey_Slayer] the problem with that is eveyone then has to buy an airship
[Fuhy] n repairs
[Turkey_Slayer] Shit like that is just gay and only a defense for the real problem at hand
[Psychokinesis] and the airship dodging...
[Psychokinesis] that was pretty awful
[RAV] it's not slick yes
[Turkey_Slayer] Yeah
[Psychokinesis] funny, but awful
[Turkey_Slayer] I seriously like my idea
[Psychokinesis] buy repairs?
[Turkey_Slayer] Naw
[Turkey_Slayer] The number of towers alive adds HP to the Keeps
[PlasticLetters] or makes it invincible altogether
[Turkey_Slayer] I was thinking that, too
[PlasticLetters] kill the towers to then kill the keep
[Turkey_Slayer] It's a bit much
[Turkey_Slayer] Yeah
[PlasticLetters] it would focus it back a little more, but may be a little heavy handed
[Fuhy] pple wil lstill cheese towers
[Titus01] yea its not that hard
[Turkey_Slayer] That takes longer, though
[Fuhy] a double flare with bloodbath kills a tower in 5 sec :)
[Psychokinesis] luckily flare stops as soon as jean dies
[Turkey_Slayer] Well maybe the problem is with spell power to Keeps
[Fuhy] make keeps immune to magic!
[Psychokinesis] but its pretty difficult to kill jean in 7 seconds unless youre waiting for her
[Fuhy] i didnt know flare stops if jean dies
[Psychokinesis] ya its new
[Fuhy] ghey
[PlasticLetters] no more suicide runs to kill towers then
[Psychokinesis] makes main cheese harder heh
[RAV] I will say this to you:
[Turkey_Slayer] Less abilities should damage buildings in general
[RAV] there needs to be a way to >earn< recovery from cheese
[Psychokinesis] counter-cheese
[Turkey_Slayer] I can understand the need for the game to end quicker, but god damn
[RAV] that offensive good confrontative play earns you something that let's you recover from guys running around the map and hitting buildings
[Turkey_Slayer] There is a need for abilities that do more damage for the number of enemies around
[RAV] not counter-cheese, for not to further devolve gameplay into a crapfest
[Psychokinesis] do you gain blood frmo attacking buildings?
[RAV] I thinks yes
[PlasticLetters] or an item that gives a chance to cast a spell and it hit all enemies.
[PlasticLetters] in a certain area of course
[Psychokinesis] i think that could be taken out
[Fuhy] lets rm
[RAV] not for me today
[Psychokinesis] ah, i remember. i was talking about the defender's advantage
[Turkey_Slayer] Reliquary needs to be more expensive, though
[Fuhy] ;/
[Turkey_Slayer] srsly
[Psychokinesis] probably with turkey
[Fuhy] RELIQUARY FTW
[Turkey_Slayer] That would helpp
[RAV] but rest assured I will bring this up in dev corner discussion
[Fuhy] perma stun with dotm
[Psychokinesis] or maybe mengde
[RAV] the other's are not really playing this map
[Psychokinesis] oh wait, no. it was boogle
[RAV] so I think they are not aware of the problems
[Turkey_Slayer] Which is the problem
[RAV] that's why I' m here :)
[Psychokinesis] defender's advantage!
[Fuhy] gn TIDES OF BLOOD!
[Psychokinesis] i have no idea what i came up with beyond that
[RAV] ok boys have fun, was nice
[RAV] good night good fight

I have personally conducted cheeses which made a few people quite angry. Especially using Malf and BR, but several others can cheese effectively too. Cheesing is very easy, and there is often very little you can do about stopping it.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby boogieman » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:13 pm

Personally I like the cheese game, the problem is at the moment there is no counter to it.

In the past there were workers to repair and tp/zeps which allowed you to react quickly to attempted cheese. Now the only hero that can react fast enough is malf.

I think something as simple as adding in tps would greatly increase a teams ability to react to cheese. If you dislike how fast tps allow you to react increase the channeling time from 3 to 5 seconds or something along those lines.

Another suggestion is maybe have a item for heros which can be used to repair but to use it they have to channel. ie Repair hammar, 1000 gold, + 10 damage and the ability to repair buildings while channeling. Make it slow to repair so if you want to repair you have to sacrifice a hero while doing it.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:30 pm

Only people that like last-hitting and pot whoring can like building cheese. It is the exact same class of problem in every way. It's the most tedious and uncreative way to play the game, and yet it is also by far the most effective. The others don't have a choice in how to answer it, like with the other removed mechanics, it thins out gameplay, one does this rote cheese, everyone has to do it, regardless of personal preferences in how to play the game. Trying to mount a coordinated defense against cheese while keeping yourself a more interesting playstyle, is either frank impossible or takes a hundred times more effort than for what cheesers are doing. And almost paradoxically, when two competent teams are involved, building cheese also makes games much longer than they should be, it dwarfs the playtime of the other phases, but has by far the lowest quality of play and fun compared. It prolongs by erasing all history of a match so easily, the biggest advantage turns out flimsy at best, one has to ask himself "why did I so struggle in epic 45 minutes, why did I sweat so much blood about that, if I could have just gotten myself a burger meanwhile and later completely evened the game out in like a minute". Those middle game phase expo advantages must be worked so hard for, but get lost all too easily. The state of the end game is not a worthy representation of the earlier course of the match. Ill-fated attempts to prevent this merely take out all offensive play of the winning team. And without the additional troop pressure of superior expansions flanking in, taking down the main base where everyone sits together at the end respawning near double fountains, is so time consuming and difficult. It simply isn't worth a full front siege that made the first two third of the game so fun; so either the game draws terribly out by failing three dozen times to traditionally siege or by just hit and run attack a tower at a time while the others try to delay that, or to finally end this misery for everyone involved your whole team together must do simple minded kamikaze suicide focus attacks on buildings exclusively, which feels just retarded in every way. But sadly even that takes longer than it's worth. By now, the best thing to do to enjoy the awesomeness of the game, is to deliberately call it quits in honor after one or two expos have fallen. I have little hope for solutions that are about repair, it won't really help its negative effects; personally I think that building cheese in AoS must be systematically eliminated like last-hitting was.

Note this: I speak for myself here in function as a non dev, for a good discussion with you. Having time to play or not, the devs are aware of most already. But if and how to address these things is only up to them.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Dominant-Male » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:13 am

So far the cheese I've seen has only taken place in the late game. There's not enough power to effectively cheese expos/mains until very late in the game when ultimates are at level 3 and the heroes are loaded with powerful items. Before we figure out how to stop cheese, we should first figure out why people resort to it in the first place. The answer is pretty simple:

Late-game O takes FOREVER.

The pacing of the game up until expos are destroyed are awesome. It starts with small, quick paced skirmishes and builds up into this climactic battle in a single lane where every hero is trying to help take down the enemy expo. I have absolutely no complaints with the game up until it comes down to taking down the enemy HQ.

Whenever an attacking hero is killed, he starts out on the opposite end of the map and has to run all the way over. If he goes low on HP or mana, too bad. You either have to run all the way home or get healing from your allies. Defending heroes however have the fountain to work with and can keep fighting for a really long time. When they respawn, they're right back in the action. They also have a lot of towers to work with and they don't have to wait for too long for their units to spawn.

I'm not sure what the best way to shorten the late game is but it's way too long as is.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:39 am

Really, people mostly cheese whenever they suffered a big blow and want to turn around the game, that's how most people legitimize their cheese, that they had no choice.

But haha, yes it's funny you too mention that other end game problem, last week I've argued the same, since it is actually closely related to cheese. Note though that cheese is not simply a follow up problem, but goes hand in hand with the other, worsening each other. Cheese worsens the other, because when no one is able to hold any expansion no matter what, it takes out a huge amount of flanking pressure that would at least greatly help the supposed winners on main sieges. That cheesing makes it so that no end game can have any expo flanking, that both sides go even into this stage regardless of performance before, that kept expos cannot serve as innate performance evaluation, all does unnecessarily amplify the problem of excessively long games by the main's home advantage in conjunction with map distances that has no natural counterweight anymore.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Viikuna- » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:43 am

Just bring pots back in some form. Allow people somehow regenerate far from their fountains.

Or make those mid lane town halls bit more harder to defend, so assaulting directly to the enemy base, instead of playing with expos, could also work. ( It might work already, though. Havent just seen it too much yet )
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:51 am

Or said shorter: that cheese eliminates the necessary advantages needed to, within reasonable effort, pressure down a main's home advantage, is really just another form of dota style denial, and it breaks the end game, because it removes one of the game's most important natural provision to end the game, which then begs for even more cheese.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:07 am

Now, having established this understanding also let's us see much clearer the rest of that picture:

Upgraded bases and troops are not an option to the player but in the current design of ToB they are necessity for the end game to be crisp and good; difficult to earn and necessary to keep, they are eligible for better protection.

They are the very means to overcome the ultimate challenge of the enemy's main base; when the heroes of both sides are item-ed up, one side still has the home advantage in addition, that must be offset with superior troop investments by the others; the other team must have earned and made those accumulated troop investments in order to be entitled to lay siege on the main and end the game. The roll up of those make mistakes of the defenders more and more critical, wrapping up the game quicker; successful play of earlier earning many of those makes for a quicker and more convincing end game.

Not upgrading troops makes for a bad match in this game; is the player given choice here, he unwittingly decided between having a good or a bad match. On the other hand, the soul of this type of game entirely lives on the growth of the player's hero personally; seeing the hero become more powerful and customized as confirmation of success with smart play, and in turn allowing for even smarter play, is the greatest source of satisfaction in this game.

So since both kinds of investments are important to the enjoyment of this game for different reasons, a player should not feel the need to choose for one investment against the other; rather he should make both at once as well as he is given for different aspects of successful play. In other words, this means items should be payed in a different resource than troop investments, both different resources earned differently according to different standards, so that these interests do no compete and conflict, and the match ends well.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:25 am

The game steadily and lastingly registering player achievement as well as ensuring that innate player interest in this game type does not conflict innate game design, should be the very key for a working end game in ToB.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:34 am

I even go so far as to say, the layout of AoS very much forbids the destruction of both opposing keeps on the same lane at once; there must always be establishing dominance, a directed pressure, never a vacuum. When one keep is destroyed, the game mechanic must ensure the continued existence of the remaining opposition for as long as the earlier is not reestablished--anything else makes the end game work less well. It seems like a basic law of nature to AoS.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Viikuna- » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:03 am

RageAgainstVoid wrote: In other words, this means items should be payed in a different resource than troop investments, both different resources earned differently according to different standards, so that these interests do no compete and conflict, and the match ends well.


Creeps giving gold to pimp your hero, and heroes giving blood to pimp your creeps eh?



I remember this one cool map, ( I might have told this story before..., so sorry If Im repeating myself. ) which was basicly a modified Lost Temple map, with 2 computers playing normal ladder against each other, and 5 heroes on each side playing with pretty cool custom AoS heroes.

This gave me an idea, which was basicly to make an AoS without towers and fountains. All, defencing, attacking and healing would have been done with units.

( This would ofc require some damn good AI or something, and I have no knowledge about that kind of stuff, so I dont know how well it can actually be done, but anyways.. )

Anyways, indeed. I had some damn cool scenarios abaout 5 heroes trying to defend their retreating troops from enemy heroes that are trying to kill them before they get back to the base for healing and stuff like that.


So. Some more creep Ai and strategy stuff might not hurt. It would be damn cool to be able to somehow choose where some creep wave should attakc, or somehow lead them or something.

( Not sure what it would exactly be, but something maybe. )


edit. Instead of cheesing with Red Rum BR you could cheese with Red Rum BR and one creep wave from some mid lane or something. I believe this was what I was trying to say.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:26 am

Well, to be truthful.. there was another resource.. I was thinking about.. erm.. already two years ago? those who read me back in those darker times would know! *grin* my oh my how time goes by! But pssht, secret! let's not warm up old coffee beyond that. And to those who know what I'm talking about, I am kinda amused how all these considerations of today again lead back to those of that earlier work; it and most any softer variation or partial implementation of it, innately have all the qualities described above. Curiously enough, I cannot help but notice the current state of ToB's base build and troop affairs to be the exact opposite to about everything of it--as if to spite it! Anyway, moving on!
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Dominant-Male » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:29 am

I don't think new currency is something the map needs. Getting creeps doesn't have to be a huge investment if the entire team chips in. 500 gold from each member of the team is enough for abominations for example. Pooling has been increasing over the last games I've played, it's just that earlier on people were distracted by the shiny new items.
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