Merlin wrote:Cheesing is a bastardly thing to do, and it basically ruins the game.
Merlin wrote:It's not a good tactic; it's the best. The best tactic in ToB right now is bastardly. I don't like that the most effective way to play the game is also the most bastardly way.
A diverge of the implicit design from the explicit design that rewards best playing the game when not playing the game. It's like calling a gunslinger the winner of a box fight--it makes no sense.
-Y- wrote:That being said I don't think you are wrong. If cheesing is non-counter-able (or counter-able only by cheesing) its probably a degenerate strategy which could explain why you find it "bastardy".
BTW can cheesing be countered by Backdooring or other strategy (I haven't got the time to play the game )?
- A tactic involving one or more players suddenly attacking an undefended enemy structure with the intention of destroying it before the enemy has the time to react. Usually performed as a last-ditch effort, or timed to coincide with a diversionary attack at another location.
- A strategy involving short and rapid, but sustained bursts of aggression against enemy structures with the overall goal of causing maximum damage while minimizing personal risk by staying back and only exposing oneself while casting.
Which is why Merlin called it a bastardly thing to do, a word that is basically a synonym to what you just said, and to which you disagreed.-Y- wrote:Is it unprofessional - yes. Is it unsportsmanlike - yes. Is he douche - hell yes.
Anything else would be a stretch to definition.-Y- wrote:Is it playing to win - maybe if you really stretch that definition.
-Y- wrote:But seriously, what did you expect?
-Y- wrote:And this lies completely on the hands of the organizers.
Like ToB, which is why we discuss it here.-Y- wrote:They should have either added more (or more competent) judges, added cameras, etc.
-Y- wrote:If anything this will either:
A) Make people lose interest in football, forcing FIFA to "patch" things up.
B) Attract another crowd. Maybe more people who like pro wrestling will start watching football.
C) Make people lose interest in football, causing it to vanish into oblivion.
That players choose to play fair and rely on skill although they could play as dirty as any other, is why Spain is so popular, has been favored and is widely seen to have entirely deserved the World Cup the most; people recognize honor and reward it with admiration. Germany did not play this bastardly as well and lost in honor, becoming one of the most popular teams this cup; Uruguay's "hand of god" foul play winning them a match and throwing out another team, made them the most unpopular team.-Y- wrote:If you could insta-kill any unit in starcraft by clicking on it too many time while observer wasn't looking at you, would you yell at the player doing it or Blizzard, for leaving this crap in the game?
-Y- wrote:Well it seems that would be quite a hard problem to counter. Again, what skill levels (of a player) and item/spell power requirements are needed to start a cheese? Still it might be too early to tell, really. It takes time for a counter for a dominate strategy to form (if it does).
As for the whole explicit/implicit design I consider it a non-issue. As a gamer your job is to scan around for a hole/personal advantage in the explicit design space and use it. People's impression of what is implicit varies a lot; from allowing, condemning to prohibiting of backdooring/using leavers/pooling/etc. In other words Play to Win.
RageAgainstVoid wrote:Which is why Merlin called it a bastardly thing to do-Y- wrote:Is it unprofessional - yes. Is it unsportsmanlike - yes. Is he douche - hell yes.
RageAgainstVoid wrote:You don't just play to win by any means, you play for a good group experience.
-Y- wrote:Anyway don't wanna pollute this thread, so I've moved discussion to another thread.
-Y- wrote:You can Play to Win without acting like a douche. Playing like a douche might even be contrary to Playing to Win. You can win without playing to win.
And I don't say "mind the social contracts", I say mind that any game is created in social context. I really don't care what commercial tourney players have to say on that; their theories about games removed from social context are wrong. A game inherently is a social construct, a game only exists the moment people agree to play to certain rules, people acknowledge a winner and people measure the quality of play. It's people, it's always the people that matter, it's only them that matter, everything loses sense without them.-Y- wrote:PtW doesn't say "Win by any means", it says "Mind the end result, not the implicit social contracts" (which is pretty much what Machiavelli said). How you chose to win doesn't matter.
Didn't seem to matter much compared to winning that game and staying in the world cup tourney; no one of them minding a single thought on repercussion, they were celebrated like heroes by their own people. Just as the Netherlands got dozens of yellow cards, and they didn't seem to mind either, they just managed foul deficits across the team as if that was a strategical resource to the game.-Y- wrote: You do know they got sanctioned for playing with hand, right?
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