Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

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Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:58 pm

There have been several updates since 1.19.

1.20/1.21/1.23 Changelog

Bug Fixes
1.23
* Fixed several issues with texture compression that caused crashes for Mac users.
* Fixed an issue with Spell Resistance not working correctly under certain conditions.
* Fixed an issue with Pain Wards being controlled by Fugue.
* Fixed an issue with corpses in Blueshift not returning to their original speeds when its effect ends.
* Fixed an issue with the Blood Meter conferring disproportionately large bonuses.
* Restored the Phantom Arrows/Haunt AI to its version 1.08 state, making it more responsive.
* Phantom Arrows now use Spell Power.

1.21
* Fixed several issues related to the game crashing.

1.20
* Fixed an issue with numerous graphical elements being displayed improperly.
* Fixed an issue with the Blood Meter conferring disproportionately large bonuses.
* Added additional safety to prevent a rare issue with double freeing a timer.

Debug Additions
1.20
* Added debug messages to attempt to catch the cause of the frame rate issue that occurs in some games.(removed 1.21)

General Changes
1.23
* Mode selection no longer times out in single-player.
* Restored the option to purchase additional spawns.
* Towers now attack wards.

1.20
* Mode selection now times out after 20 seconds.
* Player cameras no longer track respawning heroes if a player controls at least one other living hero. Instead, the respawning hero is pinged for the controlling player.

Balance Changes

1.23
Units:
* The Flying Dutchman now slows its target by 60% for 3 seconds on impact.
* Decreased the length of time Spirit of the Adria moves forward after colliding with its initial target.
* Dead Can Dance skeletons no longer receive buffs from auras.
* Dead Can Dance skeletons are now slowed by Blueshift. (This does not cause them to explode.)
* Shield of Faith is no longer channeled.
* Lowered Blueshift's cooldown from 180/150/120 to 150/120/90 seconds.
* Increased Crimson Wake's speed.
* Butthead now slows its target for 4 seconds at all levels.
* Antavahni now gives the Firebeetle immunity to channel-breaking effects.

1.20
* Units affected by Voodoo Glow Skulls now suffer a penalty to Armor and Spell Resistance in addition to being slowed.
* Dual Nature now heals only as much damage as it is able to deal before killing its enemy target.


Post away people.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Cassiel » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:20 pm

Actually the debug messages are gone now. I think I fixed the frame rate issue, so I'm taking the fact that nobody ever saw the messages as evidence of that.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:35 pm

Aiight, made a little change thur.

Cass is there anything you would like feedback on or should we continue posting on anything and everything?
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Cassiel » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:52 pm

The debugs were still present in 1.21--that's why I'm pretty sure that if the frame rate issue were still around, we would have seen it again by now.

Give whatever feedback you want. I filter out the hokum.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:31 pm

Add item boots of sprinter. Normal boots but when activating sprint unit gets +40%ms for 20 seconds however it is turned off when taking damage. No sockets
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby SamuraiWindu » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:36 pm

I think that since the Bloodmage uses health in place of mana, he should treat items that are supposed to enhance mana as items that enhance health instead. So the Bloodmage would treat Sunstones as if they were Bloodstones and Soulstones as if they were Seastones.

The reason for this is because I have seen several people new to the map buying Sunstones and Soulstones for their Bloodmage before they realize that they are just wasting gold. This change would make the map easier to learn. Also, this change would allow items traded between players to always benefit the Bloodmage.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:42 pm

If not change his primary stat to str, might make new people less confused. Also change sh's from agil to int.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby SamuraiWindu » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:49 pm

I generally don’t like passive abilities and Tough As Nails is no exception. But that alone is not good enough reason to change it – or for me to even comment about it. However, Tough As Nails has an interesting quirk that warrants attention.

Tough As Nails increases the Battle Rouser’s armor and also increases his attack damage by half his total armor. The bonus to armor increases per level. But the percentage of armor that adds to attack damage remains the same for every level.

The most interesting and most useful effect of the ability is capped at the first level! :shock:

What makes it worse is that first level grants 4 armor, second grants 6, third 8, fourth 10, and fifth 12. So each level increase grants 2 additional armor, with first level granting an extra 2. This, coupled with the fact that there is a gem that grants +2 armor, makes the first level really useful and every level thereafter practically useless.

Also, it does not benefit form spell power like most abilities do. But I suppose this is forgivable since it does benefit from a different gem effect (two gems effects if you consider agility).

Speaking of gems, one Earthstone grants the same +2 armor that increasing its level above first level does. So, one Earthstone equals one ability point invested in Tough As Nails. I think there is something wrong here.

My suggestion is to make Tough As Nails increase armor and attack damage % per armor as follows:

Level 1: +2 armor, 15% damage per armor.
Level 2: +4 armor, 30% damage per armor.
Level 3: +6 armor, 45% damage per armor.
Level 4: +8 armor, 60% damage per armor.
Level 5: +10 armor, 75% damage per armor.

Or maybe even forego the armor bonus entirely. At least this would make it useful to upgrade.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:14 pm

Level 1 tob moves are equivalent to level 2 really in order to speed up gameplay(more like 1.5).

Your suggestion is good for tough as nails however i have a problem with the whole ability. It's not really that useful and doesn't fit in with brs theme. It's basically +armor and +damage and it's static since why would he ever stack armor? Maybe make him steal/gain armor from an opponent ontop of it's current affect, then armor is refunded after x seconds.

Passives are okay, generally each hero has one passive which works out okay. I would hate having 4 clicking skills. Inquis comes close but not quite.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Cassiel » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:08 pm

SamuraiWindu wrote:The most interesting and most useful effect of the ability is capped at the first level! :shock:

Yup, it's pretty much a no-win situation if you want to keep the mechanics transparent. A linear progression like yours is either too weak in the beginning, too strong in the end, or too undifferentiated between levels. Mathematically the sweet spot actually seems to be something like 33.3_/50/66.6_/83.3_/100% armor -> damage (you can tell it used to use a linear progression like this by how the ubertip is written), but I have yet to play a single game of O and don't trust this one to feedback due to how insane it could make the BR.

The obvious and likely necessary change would be to factor armor from agility out of the equation and only count bonuses from abilities and items, but that gums up the UI because armor from bonus agility is lumped into the same green/red number as everything else. I.e., if you have +10 armor from items and +12 agility, your bonus armor shows as +13, even though only 10 of it counts for Tough As Nails. That makes it a pain for the player to eyeball, and eyeballability is something I value.

This is something I'll revisit once I have a chance to play a few games both as and against the BR.

---

I hadn't thought about confused newcomers buying mana items for the Blood Mage. One option for now is to just sell stuff back, since resale in O is for 90% of the purchase price. I'm not keen on giving the gems a full-on different effect when held by a Blood Mage, although praise be to the item system, it would take approximately 10 seconds to do.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Merlin » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:01 pm

Ignoring the semi-frequent crashes, I really like this update. We're definitely approaching a balanced game.

The largest remaining imbalance, in my opinion, is Toro. He's the only hero who can consistently achieve 4 or 5k HP and his abilities while in Red Bull are devastating. He's a real monster for those 60 seconds.

BR is still very powerful too, but the 3 second reduction to his slow has helped a little.

Items, which I know are mostly placeholders, also contribute pretty significantly to current imbalances. BR with tons of STR, for example, is pretty much unstoppable.

Beyond that, I'd like to see a few more abilities that need to be targeted manually. I like spells that can be avoided with skillful (read: twitchy) play. Something about provoking an enemy to cast and then dodging it feels rewarding to me.

Keep it up! :D
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby SamuraiWindu » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:21 am

Cassiel wrote:A linear progression like yours is either too weak in the beginning, too strong in the end, or too undifferentiated between levels. Mathematically the sweet spot actually seems to be something like 33.3_/50/66.6_/83.3_/100% armor -> damage.
You gave this more thought than I did. I like your number progression better. :)

Cassiel wrote:The obvious and likely necessary change would be to factor armor from agility out of the equation and only count bonuses from abilities and items, but that gums up the UI because armor from bonus agility is lumped into the same green/red number as everything else. I.e., if you have +10 armor from items and +12 agility, your bonus armor shows as +13, even though only 10 of it counts for Tough As Nails. That makes it a pain for the player to eyeball, and eyeballability is something I value.
I wouldn’t worry about agility affecting Tough As Nails. Excluding armor granted by agility may be more intuitive in design, but it would be an unintuitive mechanic. Players would expect all sources of armor to affect Tough As Nails. Even so, from a design standpoint, you could think of agility as allowing the Battle Rouser to utilize his armor spikes better.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Cassiel » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:49 am

SamuraiWindu wrote:You gave this more thought than I did. I like your number progression better. :)

It's the same progression Scab Armor uses. 1 armor per 3/2/1.5/1.2/1% life lost translates to a maximum of 33.3_/50/66.6_/83.3_/100 armor.

SamuraiWindu wrote:I wouldn’t worry about agility affecting Tough As Nails. Excluding armor granted by agility may be more intuitive in design, but it would be an unintuitive mechanic. Players would expect all sources of armor to affect Tough As Nails. Even so, from a design standpoint, you could think of agility as allowing the Battle Rouser to utilize his armor spikes better.

Unintuitive is a nice way of putting it. Ultimately ignoring agility-derived armor could be necessary for balance, though. A level 16 BR has 11 armor from agility and 12 from Tough As Nails, which means a permanent +23 damage with the progression that tops out at 100%. With these numbers I think you'd see smart BR players mass agility for the three-way boost to armor, damage and attack speed, and the results could get pretty brutal. Then again it could work out fine. We'll see.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Merlin » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:45 am

I want to offer some numbers for Toro's damage.

Moove deals 275 damage at rank 5 and 410 in Red Bull.
Mad Cow deals 240 damage at rank 5 and 360 in Red Bull, plus 60/s.

This is a 50% increase. In total, Toro can deal 1285 damage for 625 mana. This isn't counting the DoT's, or Blood Bath, or the spell damage increasing items which he is likely to have. Factor those in and he can easily dish out over 2000 damage in a few seconds. Over the course of Red Bull, he will have probably dealt 3000 to 5000 damage, and possibly more if he has a lot of items and a high BB. He's really only limited by mana.

Now consider that Toro will have about 4000 HP. This is what I mean when I say he's a monster.

I propose that the 50% increase to spells be lowered to 30%, or maybe 20% if necessary. The new Moove would deal 360 damage, and the new Apocalypse Cow would deal 310 + 50/s damage. This lowers the mana cost:damage ratio from 2.056:1 to 1.896:1. Not a huge nerf, but maybe just enough when you factor in DoT's, BB, and items.

Lastly, I think his HP gain needs to be nerfed as well. Maybe from 250/500/750 down to 250/375/500.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby SamuraiWindu » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:17 pm

Cassiel wrote:With these numbers I think you'd see smart BR players mass agility for the three-way boost to armor, damage and attack speed, and the results could get pretty brutal.
I finally understand your concern with agility. Tough As Nails almost gives the Battle Rouser a second primary attribute. But if the damage from armor tops out at 100% and agility contributes to armor at a rate of 25%, then agility only contributes to damage at a net rate of 25%. It is still far more favorable for the Battle Rouser to invest in strength to increase damage.

In fact, Tough As Nails does not even provide much of an incentive to invest in armor. At a 100% rate of damage per armor, a Brimstone (+6 strength) provides +6 damage while an Earthstone (+2 armor) provides +2 damage.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:33 pm

@merlin

Toro is pretty badass. In RB the level of his rb skills = level of normal skills right? Why not scale the damage with level of RB. E.g.

RB Lv1: Moove = toro move * 15%
RB Lv2: Moove = toro move * 30%
RB Lv3: Moove = toro move * 45%

The only problem I can see with this is tooltips, would need 15 just for him.

@Cass

Agility scaling lime that isn't so bad. Currently his STR scaling is pretty intense anyway, this would just make agil and str close to equal which can't be a bad thing.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Cassiel » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:47 pm

SamuraiWindu wrote:I finally understand your concern with agility. Tough As Nails almost gives the Battle Rouser a second primary attribute. But if the damage from armor tops out at 100% and agility contributes to armor at a rate of 25%, then agility only contributes to damage at a net rate of 25%. It is still far more favorable for the Battle Rouser to invest in strength to increase damage.

When you think about it in terms of DPS rather than a flat damage bonus though the numbers are a little different. Every point of STR adds 1 damage, but every point of AGI adds 1% DPS (attack speed = base / (1 + mod), i.e. 1% attack speed = 1% bonus DPS). With level 5 Tough As Nails you're seeing +1-2 damage per AGI gem on top of +6% DPS and +9% effective life. Even in raw damage STR eventually loses out to AGI and you wind up doing the same balancing act as between life and armor.

SamuraiWindu wrote:In fact, Tough As Nails does not even provide much of an incentive to invest in armor. At a 100% rate of damage per armor, a Brimstone (+6 strength) provides +6 damage while an Earthstone (+2 armor) provides +2 damage.

It depends. The +2 armor also grants +12% effective life, which can easily be worth more than a STR gem.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:53 pm

Does armor reduce spell damage cause if not then 1 armor = 0 effective life. Life almost always outweighs armor unless a huge amount of damage is physical. Plus str scales better with redrum, a lot better.

PS stop theorying so much and play a game.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby SamuraiWindu » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:34 pm

Cassiel wrote:With level 5 Tough As Nails you're seeing +1-2 damage per AGI gem on top of +6% DPS and +9% effective life. Even in raw damage STR eventually loses out to AGI and you wind up doing the same balancing act as between life and armor.
What about heroes with agility as their primary attribute? They would receive the same +6% DPS and +9% effective life, plus an additional +6 damage to boot. That is even more favorable that what the Battle Rouser can achieve with agility.

Cassiel wrote:The +2 armor also grants +12% effective life, which can easily be worth more than a STR gem.
theboogleman brings up a very good point and I am going to parrot a bit of it. Spawns and towers exclusively deal physical damage and are mitigated by armor (correct me if spawns with magic attacks are a special case). These attacks are easy to avoid or counter. Spell damage is a very different story. Hero abilities can dish out lots of spell damage in a very short period of time, and this damage is primarily mitigated by raw life. Armor is far less useful when facing human adversaries.

This discussion ties in quite nicely with another noteworthy topic. I noticed that all abilities that deal damage deal spell damage. I remember talk about how certain abilities were going to deal physical damage and how intelligence was going to provide magic protection similar to how agility provides armor. What happened with this design plan?
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:54 pm

Intelligence scaling like that would be good as overall it's a boring ass stat. When you got to the point of mass stacking agil or str tower and spawn damage is almost negligable. The only time where armor would be good is vs physical damage spells or physical damage heroes(currently br is the only one so meh).
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby Cassiel » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:14 am

SamuraiWindu wrote:What about heroes with agility as their primary attribute? They would receive the same +6% DPS and +9% effective life, plus an additional +6 damage to boot. That is even more favorable that what the Battle Rouser can achieve with agility.

Weren't you around for all the rants about imba AGI heroes back in the early days of WC3?

SamuraiWindu wrote:theboogleman brings up a very good point and I am going to parrot a bit of it. Spawns and towers exclusively deal physical damage and are mitigated by armor (correct me if spawns with magic attacks are a special case). These attacks are easy to avoid or counter. Spell damage is a very different story. Hero abilities can dish out lots of spell damage in a very short period of time, and this damage is primarily mitigated by raw life. Armor is far less useful when facing human adversaries.

So is Scab Armor worthless? Another nice thing about armor specifically for the BR is that Redrum ignores it. If someone whacks you for 100 damage, Redrum counts it as 100 damage--no matter how much damage you actually take after resistance from armor is factored in.

SamuraiWindu wrote:This discussion ties in quite nicely with another noteworthy topic. I noticed that all abilities that deal damage deal spell damage. I remember talk about how certain abilities were going to deal physical damage and how intelligence was going to provide magic protection similar to how agility provides armor. What happened with this design plan?

It was never a plan, just a discussion. Like I've said before, WC3's tri-stat base is the right model for this type of game. It perfectly captures the three archetypes of strong guy, fast guy and smart guy. The details are just a mess.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby SamuraiWindu » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:23 am

Cassiel wrote:So is Scab Armor worthless?
As a matter of fact, it is. I assumed that, since O is still in beta, all core features were not yet implemented. I assumed that some abilities would deal magic damage, some would deal physical damage, and some would deal both. I was waiting until these were implemented before I concerned myself with balance issued, since any discussion about balance would be irrelevant until they are. I feel that implementing such things would make the game experience much richer, and ultimately more fun.

I remember the concern about how to display magic damage reduction. I know that “eyeballability is something [you] value.” And I agree with you. However, even if it can’t be displayed ideally, that is no excuse to not implement it.

Also, I believe that magic damage reduction needs a name similar to how armor describes physical damage reduction. May I suggest “wards” be that name.

Cassiel wrote:Another nice thing about armor specifically for the BR is that Redrum ignores it. If someone whacks you for 100 damage, Redrum counts it as 100 damage--no matter how much damage you actually take after resistance from armor is factored in.
Abilities like Redrum are excellent, especially for their potential synergy with other abilities.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby nooK » Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:48 am

SamuraiWindu wrote:I assumed that some abilities would deal magic damage, some would deal physical damage, and some would deal both.

Hell no.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby erwtenpeller » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:13 am

SamuraiWindu wrote:However, even if it can’t be displayed ideally, that is no excuse to not implement it.

It is the perfect excuse. In fact, if you can't communicate a feature to your audience, you can't implement it.
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Re: Feedback - 1.23 (6/14/2010)

Postby SamuraiWindu » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:07 am

erwtenpeller wrote:If you can't communicate a feature to your audience, you can't implement it.
When you are playing any Warcraft III map, how can you tell exactly how fast a unit’s health will regenerate, or how fast its mana will regenerate? How often do you actually take note of the damage reduction armor provides? As a player, I never concern myself with these things. They are unimportant to the split-second decisions I make. Displaying magic damage reduction would also be inconsequential. It is possible to insert a message into the interface that tells the player that intelligence increases magic damage reduction. That is all that is required.
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