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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Dominant-Male » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:29 am

Myth wrote:
theboogleman wrote:Tip: Stop trying to pimp clan dpc. Channel tob is where it's at



This!


Spoiler:
Channel tob theme song

Making your way on battle.net takes everything you've got.
Most of the games are allstars DOTA, hosted by a bot.

Wouldn't you like to play some O?

Sometimes you want to go

Where everybody knows your name, ('cause they go to the forums)
and they're always glad you came. ('cause they can't get a full house)
You wanna be where you can see,
when people are up for a game
You wanna be where everybody knows
Your name.


Dominant-Male on east. Are people playing on any other realm?
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Mr.Garrison » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:47 am

Cassiel wrote:
Cassiel wrote:The gn is "Tides of Blood O 1.19!" plus the #.

So it took 2 hours to start #1. During that time enough people for a dozen games came and went. Kids have no patience these days!



Yes, it is painful. I host TOBO with Orochi sometimes and people come and go by the boatload. Games only start relatively quickly when I have a few DpC or FOTS people with me at the start of hosting.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby gandalf37 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:46 am

I <3 the channel tob theme song.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Viikuna- » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:58 am

I love it too. I just hate to be alone at channel tob.. Wheres everybody?
No Marlo, no game.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Mur » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:40 pm

All alone again D=
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Drain_Pipe » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:54 pm

Couple quick comments:

Battlerager is a little over tanky and his passive's secondary effect doesn't really warrant him choosing armor over strength. Also, his disables allow him to always stay with the target. Perhaps we can increase the cooldown slightly, so that he can't keep up with his enemy so easily?

WD is still insanely good vs spawns, and terrible vs everything else.

Jimmy: at any level, he's OP. His spells are terribly powerful at early levels and easy to hit on. 1 annoying thing is that 1 unit is enough to break his chain. Could we perhaps add a small range of a motion buffer on that skill (so he could drag around a single unit blocking his path?
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Death » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:06 pm

WD is awesomesauce against heroes. L2play.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:09 pm

This isn't the dota or wow forums. Please explain why you think something not just "L2P".
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Dominant-Male » Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:11 am

Well, the witch doctor is a support hero and needs to be played as one, at least later on in the game. His healing wave is incredibly powerful and with some increased spell power it can heal your entire team for a massive amount. Pain ward can wear down enemy heroes very fast, but he lacks the burst damage to finish them off on his own, but that's why this is a team game. I enjoy pairing him up with someone like Jimmy or Pirate, who have good burst damage and benefit from the WD's crowd control abilities.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Mur » Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:18 am

Drain_Pipe wrote: 1 annoying thing is that 1 unit is enough to break his chain.


But it is oh so sweet to watch one measly archer break Jimmy's perfect chain.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Drain_Pipe » Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:26 am

Oh I agree entirely that he's support. Just that PW and JJB's are all he needs to be support right now, and you only highlighting those two leads suggests you have similar reservations about gvs and tdcd. At max level, he can keep an entire spawn rush alive up to a base and then some, and with PW, he can drop any sort of spawn rush with only 1 ward. TDCD is good enough from lvl 1 and doesn't get any more useful after that, in terms of pushing, imo. Right now, the best part of it is tower distraction and enemy spawn obliteration. This thing drops spawns like flies, and keeps towers busy just fine at lvl 1. There isn't even a real benefit to leveling it past that. And although gvs has a decent effect now, it's short-lived and makes you really have to time the spell correctly in order for any ally to make any use of it (4 seconds is rather a short duration on heroes).

I'd almost want to suggest giving it a fairly long duration and scrap the slow and beef up the negative effects, but I'm not sure how well that'd work out (since slow is such a major benefit for him especially).

For the ult though, perhaps instead of beefing up the damage, we could have damage constant, but duration and AoE as the primary effects? Because that's really the power of the spell; the longer you can channel it, the more useful it is, considering how it works. Also a big aoe would make it more likely for heroes to take damage before they disable you.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:22 pm

Cass said he was putting a -spell resistance element to his slow.

Suggestion: Pw reduces enemy max hp instead of dmg. After they get out of pw hp starts ticking back up to max but current hp stays the same.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Drain_Pipe » Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:49 pm

theboogleman wrote:Cass said he was putting a -spell resistance element to his slow.

Suggestion: Pw reduces enemy max hp instead of dmg. After they get out of pw hp starts ticking back up to max but current hp stays the same.


That's already been inputed, and it would be hella useful, but it only lasts for 4 seconds on heroes. That's fine if you have really good team coordiation but atm I would even contemplate buffing the dmg and spell resistance debuff and increasing the duration to be something like 4-5-6-7-8 seconds on all enemies, heroes included, at the cost of removing the slow. I say that because the 60% slow, dmg and spell resist reduction, and 8 second duration would be way too good with good teamates. I guess for now you just need really good timing.

As for the suggestion, would that mean that if they were already missing hp, PW wouldn't affect them until their max hp dropped below their current hp?
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:26 pm

MMmmm didn't think about that. The best solution would be to drop both hp's whilst in pw and when out max starts going back up at increased rate compared to current which heals as per normal.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Drain_Pipe » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:58 pm

Would be an interesting way to counter the fountain and other healing effects...
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Merlin » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:53 pm

I really like the way the game feels so far, and I have a few suggestions which I think will help improve the game play and balance. I hope you agree.

Heroes

BR
*Butthead: Change targeting to ground. Have it work like Bindu in N, except BR crashes into things and knocks them away, instead of passing through them. Decrease slow duration.
*Browbeat: Decrease stun duration.
*Redrum: Needs some sort of graphic.

Toro
*Moove: Return to N style. Remove stun, and add minor damage on collision with other units.
*Mad Cow: Decrease damage area to a little larger than it was in N.
*Red Bull: Decrease Moove and Apocalypse Cow damage considerably, return Moove to N style as described above.

Rat
*Boat: Return to N style. Large AoE damage on collision. Change targeting to ground.
*The Flying Dutchman: The target lands nearly a full second earlier than you do, giving them ample time to run away. This makes Rat a very poor chaser. I feel something should be done about this.

Blm
*Crimson Wake: Increase speed and maybe distance.

Inq
*Shield of Faith: Needs to be reworked somehow. Pretty useless presently.

Pory
*Galvanize: Remove the ability to trigger detonation above ground.

Malf
*Dual Nature: Decrease damage slightly.

Jimmy
*JEW: Reintroduce miss.

Items

Brightdarken: Increase cooldown to 90 (or 120) seconds. Remove ultimate reset on assist.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:51 pm

I agree with br changes, he's pretty badass right now, can disable a hero for going on 10 seconds. Maybe inc damage but dec stun on brow and add a slow.

Also with blm i don't get crimson wake, it moves slower and less distance than pw but does same damage. If you wanna keep it slow inc damage or range.

Merlin all your changes are just damage nerfs basically, relax on the nerfs.

*edit* soz about typing, my thumb is broken
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Death » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:56 pm

If you guys are thinking Blood Mage & Witch Doctor need buffs, you seem to be a little mistaken. Heroes that currently need some magic to happen to them at Phantom Queen, Disciple, Pirate, and Inquisitor.

BLM & WD currently dominate their lanes immensely, and work insanely well on the side lanes. The issue that you're probably facing is that you aren't abusing their pushing power to their fullest potential. Utilizing the tower/experience denial mechanism, you can easily get a few levels up on your opponents on BLM/WD, which is part of a successful strategy to simply overwhelm the enemy by keeping them in their base the entire time so they simply cannot fight back.

Not to mention, both have extremely powerful defensive mechanisms: WD can prance around with his 3 regular skills, becoming a royal pain in the arse, and BLM can tank like no tomorrow with Scab Armor and out damage his enemies with Elementals until they're ripe for the plucking with Crimson Wake (Which conveniently destroys entire waves easily while the elementals provide great tanking for your creeps to survive an hour long).

PQ is probably one of the most underpowered heroes in comparison, very little lane control, excluding her ultimate, which has a decent-sized cooldown. She also may be able to shut down individual heroes, but she doesn't really offer anything in battle, so in essence she just makes it a 5v5, rather than a 6v5.

Pirate, as previously mentioned, has issues with runners and being able to actually catch opponents. Granted, it helps to have heroes like Jimmy, DotM, or etc, on your side, but other heroes that are able to produce nearly the same damage output as him have methods to help them catch up. (Jimmy has hook, Toro has a long range stomp, Pory doesn't even need to be relatively close to dish out damage due to Fireflies long range, but if they come close they're pretty much dead) In the end, Pirate doesn't need a huge buff, but he needs something on Flying Dutchmen to make the spell a little more worthwhile as it's very underwhelming.

Inquisitor, since his ultimate nerf, suffers *relatively* the same issue as PQ in that he's excellent for evening out the playing field, howvever, since his spells are a little stronger and he actually has a source of damage, he has the capability to take out heroes, and his Smite is nice for instantly removing another low-mana hero like Jimmy, Toro, etc from battle. Like Merlin said, his ultimate could use some loving to make him up to par again.

Disciple is relatively in the same boat as Pirate. He's useful, and not as useless as someone like PQ, in fact, he's downright awesome to have as an ally, but his passive pales in comparison to other skills. It's nice to have near-infinite mana, but... where exactly are you going to find time to fit it in? DotM's primary source of damage is Lunar Tides, and CtM is his most renowned skill which is useful in any situation that Palefire simply gets left behind. On top of that, DotM isn't going to be stacking attack damage, so it's a little... gimped. It doesn't make sense for DotM to build himself as a physical DPS character, and as a result the mana steal on his passive tends to be very low. In essence, it just needs to find its way to becoming a little more useful so that people would actually think about using it more frequently since right now it simply hides behind the rest of his skill set and leaves him slightly gimped compared to all the characters that are above him, tier-wise.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Cassiel » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:29 pm

Death wrote:PQ is probably one of the most underpowered heroes in comparison, very little lane control, excluding her ultimate, which has a decent-sized cooldown. She also may be able to shut down individual heroes, but she doesn't really offer anything in battle, so in essence she just makes it a 5v5, rather than a 6v5.

The problem that Windu brought up with her Spell Resistance not working has been fixed for the next update. That should make her a little more hardy at least. With a solid Blood Bath, Haunt and Fugue combo she should actually be pretty scary.

Death wrote:Inquisitor, since his ultimate nerf, suffers *relatively* the same issue as PQ in that he's excellent for evening out the playing field, howvever, since his spells are a little stronger and he actually has a source of damage, he has the capability to take out heroes, and his Smite is nice for instantly removing another low-mana hero like Jimmy, Toro, etc from battle. Like Merlin said, his ultimate could use some loving to make him up to par again.

Shield of Faith will probably end up going the way of Fugue.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby erwtenpeller » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:19 am

That reminds me, i spotted the sof effect in wow, it appears when you put a glyph in a glyph slot. *tee-hee*, a very clever steal i must say.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby boogieman » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:18 am

Ok, so I've managed to play quite a bit of Tob O and I'm starting to really like the map. Its defiantly one of the best looking maps out there and I really like a lot of the changes from N.

Anyway here is a little feedback from my playing experience.

Heros

I agree with what Merlin has said about hero changes but here are also a few ideas.

Pirate
-The Flying Dutchman: Add a brief slow after so that the pirate has just enough time to get back to the same position he was in when chasing the hero before the move. As Merlin has already stated the targeted hero gets a head start after the move has finished which makes the pirate suck at chasing.


Malf
-Summoned treants should give bounty and xp when they die.

BLM
-Summoned elements should give bounty and xp when they die.
-Summoned elements should be able to be un-summoned which should return life to the blm like in N.

WD
-Dead Can Dance looks pretty but I find it is rarely useful in situations that involve heros. This might just be me?
-Pain Wards: Reduce hp at lower levels slightly as right now they dominate in the early game.

Pory
-ult should have spell resistance again as pretty much any hero can instantly cancel it.


Items

At the moment at lot of people mass boots of speed, 4-6 boots makes your hero very fast and if one hero killer is like that then everyone needs to be that fast.
What someone suggested after a game (I can't remember who) was that you stop boots from stacking and add a gem that gives +5% movement speed.

Another possibility is remove the socket from the boots.


Game play stuff

At the moment you cannot repair buildings, now I understand why you have done this, so you can try speed up the game. But in the games I've played with better player it leads to mass cheese aka back dooring. I would consider adding in some kind of repairing ability as at the moment there is no defense against cheese except camping as there are no tps/zeps.

Personally I think its worth considering adding in workers to repair and zeps/tps and then buffing slightly spell damage vs. buildings. I enjoyed the cheese factor of N and the fact that it generally took either cheese or a co-ordinated push to drop towers/expos. Now you can just slowly grind away at it towers until the drop.

Even if you don't want to add the cheese/repair meta-game back into tob I think you should re-introduce town portals, possibly increase the channel time to 5 seconds or something if you think they let you react to stuff to fast and make them only target town halls so only one hero can tp in at once. At the moment it takes a while to walk from one expo to the other which makes it hard for a surprise push, gank or to defend a expo when 2-3 hero's suddenly die.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Mur » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:39 am

Well, I guess it's time to start seriously talking about this.

Individual Heroes

I think I also have to agree with many of Merlin's suggestions.

Battlerager's two main nukes are great spells, but the fact that they're both point n click makes him feel cheesy. Spells that can actually miss and go wrong are always more fun.

Pirate is, to be honest, a shadow of what he used to be. Spirit of the Adrian is one of the greatest wc3 spells of all time, and in it's current form, well, just doesn't live up to the name. I miss crabs, and although gold digger is strange, it does sort of work. Landing a flying dutchman feels great, but I'd agree that it does need a little something else.

Pory's ulti is a joke. It needs some kind of spell resistance.

As for the Inquis ulti, why not make the shield a targetted summon, ala Red Death.

Phantom Queen is still so meh. Haunt in a game where 90% of the damage is from spells is useless. Cass I think you mentioned that the heroes had taken some influence from the Timmy/Johnny/Spike idea a while back. Can I ask what one PQ is for? A Spike who enjoys playing support?

Disciple is a great hero imo. There's nothing wrong with Palefire. Going off on a more general tangent, at the minute, all casters seem to be able to constantly cast spells with no mana/regen/intellect, making spellpower the obvious choice. The whole stat system is still a little broken, and I'm not surprised as with spell evasion/reflect/spell power there's a lot to balance. Fixing this would give casters more choice, but it's also a nerf, so I dunno. My point is, maybe if stacking int was a more viable choice, palefire would work a little better.

I wouldnt change dotm. I think he's one of the few who are quite spot on. Blueshift is one of the best spells in the game, lunar tides can often give that bit of extra push and CtM is still one of the signature spells of the game.

General Gameplay

If we're talking about lane pushers, Jean is more of an issue than WD and BM. That said, I don't think any of them are overpowered. Far from it. They all become very much support heroes later on. Yes, they dominate their lanes and many heroes don't stand a chance against them. But not all heroes are meant for lane pushing. A good Jimmy/Pirate/whatever wont let tower denial stop them. If their team can organise a snipe it is possible to keep up.

As for "Backdooring", I'm torn. One of the worst aspects of the aos genre in general is that by the time you reach endgame, you can no longer travel safely alone without a gank squad hunting you down. It becomes 6 heroes in one lane at all times.

A WD sneaking to bottom while everyone is up top and popping Dead Can Dance can be potentially devastating, and rightfully so. While the big 6v6 pushes are nice, a team should be punished for keeping all their heroes in one lane for too long.

Quite often one teams composition might just be plain better, some heroes work in perfect tandum while others don't. If you end up with a team that doesn't have good synergy compared with the other one, or say you end up getting vastly outlevelled, it shouldn't be the end of the game. You should still be able to outplay them and come back from it. Or else you're just playing a giant snowball for an hour.

Oh and last night I realised their was an attack speed gem. Has anyone ever bought one of these yet?
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Dominant-Male » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:07 am

Most abilities in the map are really cool as they are and just need some number fiddling to make them better. I think the flying dutchman for example only requires a bit more damage (and of course being able to be quicker back on your feet).

Also, I still think the phantom queen has a lot of potential with her current abilities with a few changes. Here are a couple that might be worth consideration.

- Change the primary effect of Hush to damage instead of silence duration. The silence is really powerful, yes, but the phantom queen is seriously lacking some oomph at higher levels.

- Give Haunt a % bonus to movement speed as well. As a support hero she would benefit greatly from the ability to move quickly between lanes without being harassed by creeps or towers (since she's ethereal) and it would allow her to be a great chaser without adding another snare/stun.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby theboogleman » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:59 pm

What about for pory a 50% spell/melee thorns aura(not reflect) when he ults? Maybe not stunable either. Sure attack him, but he has his spikes up so you should take damage.

I don't like workers, a while back I suggested that expos shoul regen hp when there are no enemy heroes around which I thought was an okay idea(like all of my brilliant brilliant ideas).

Also with quizs ult, why not after he finishes chanelling add x seconds of shield on the units so it ca be chanelled as well as a team ams.

Bring back crabs, they were the best thing about pirate.

Nerf hp and mana gems to +100. Buff the mana and hp regen ones(atleast double). I agree that mana should be valuable.
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Re: Feedback - O Beta Build 1.19 (06/01/2010)

Postby Mur » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:39 pm

As usual, I agree with Domi.

The hush silence is frankly absurd and can be a a bit boring. More damage output might be nice.

And haunt speed is sweet.
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