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Feedback

Postby nooK » Fri May 14, 2010 4:48 pm

Uh so it finally happened...
Great map definately however there's some stuff which bothers me.

Things I liked:
-New terrain, awesome in looks and gameplay
-New hero selection + seeing the lineup
-Blood meter
-Spell power not based on attributes
-Sockets
-Phantom girl


Things I disliked:
-No consumables at all? Supports very defensive play way too much imo: Really hope there will be some pots, doesn't have to be insta pots.
-No boots of sprinter? No dagger?
-New boat: the old one required some amount of skill, right now you can't even fuck it up? Also dislike the constant damage, why not scale it a bit? Balancing skills only with higher cd on low levels is no good gameplay mechanic imo.
-Rat's gold passive: Adds no fun, boring mechanic, worst skill in O. I really thought the time of such passives was over.
-Pwnt! - fun on the first try, already annoying after the 3rd use. Using a normal ability on someone just isn't pwnt.
-Meat Hook: Really not digging the graphics, yet another unit targeted ability with no skill involved, just hook and then eat..
-Jimmy's passive: Don't know why you have removed cannibalize or splash dmg for such an boring passive skill. I think his old skillset was better hero design (except imba jew).

*Preparing for incoming flames*
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Re: Feedback

Postby Cassiel » Fri May 14, 2010 5:17 pm

nooK wrote:Things I disliked:
-No consumables at all? Supports very defensive play way too much imo: Really hope there will be some pots, doesn't have to be insta pots.

In the event that an item tree were added there would be items that do the things consumables do. There would also be some other unique consumables, similar to the Ritual of Life.

nooK wrote:-No boots of sprinter? No dagger?

No item tree at all. Just some demo items that show off a few of the new features.

nooK wrote:-New boat: the old one required some amount of skill, right now you can't even fuck it up? Also dislike the constant damage, why not scale it a bit? Balancing skills only with higher cd on low levels is no good gameplay mechanic imo.

I completely agree with you on scaling ults. It will probably happen.

nooK wrote:-Rat's gold passive: Adds no fun, boring mechanic, worst skill in O. I really thought the time of such passives was over.

Don't play the Mariner then. It's perfectly okay if there are heroes you don't like to play. One of the things I'd actually like to see more of in WC3 maps is heroes that support different play styles--think Timmy, Johnny and Spike. Gold Digger is a small step in that direction.

nooK wrote:-Pwnt! - fun on the first try, already annoying after the 3rd use. Using a normal ability on someone just isn't pwnt.

Nah, still fun.

nooK wrote:-Meat Hook: Really not digging the graphics, yet another unit targeted ability with no skill involved, just hook and then eat..

You kind of sound like those SC1 players complaining about the dip in micro requirements for SC2. Micro is one kind of skill, but it's not the kind of skill I personally value. I'd much rather see players focus on timing and position, among other things.

nooK wrote:-Jimmy's passive: Don't know why you have removed cannibalize or splash dmg for such an boring passive skill. I think his old skillset was better hero design (except imba jew).

Same deal as Gold Digger.
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Re: Feedback

Postby Herosbane » Fri May 14, 2010 5:41 pm

I am le sad that Leto and Warlock, my two favorite heros have disappeared.
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Re: Feedback

Postby Viikuna- » Fri May 14, 2010 5:51 pm

Some bad stuff:

-Permastuns. Theres just too much stun sometimes. It cant really find anything good about it.

-Also heroes tend to die pretty fast. You dont really need too much teamwork to get heroes down. Just few heroe with blood bath activated throwing few spells and killing targets instantly.




The good thing is that combat is fucking sick. It looks good and it feels good mostly. Im having hard time to follow whats actually happenig in the screen because theres so much stuff going on. Its awesome in a way. Theres shitloads of potential in this map and I just wanna play more alla time.
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Re: Feedback

Postby the_best_killer_007 » Fri May 14, 2010 6:21 pm

stun disable n silence last all way 2 long man
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Re: Feedback

Postby the_best_killer_007 » Fri May 14, 2010 6:21 pm

i stkd spel dam on pirat and crit disable ashes attack for 40 second lol he raged like noob
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Re: Feedback

Postby nooK » Fri May 14, 2010 6:26 pm

Cassiel wrote:
nooK wrote:Things I disliked:
-No consumables at all? Supports very defensive play way too much imo: Really hope there will be some pots, doesn't have to be insta pots.

In the event that an item tree were added there would be items that do the things consumables do. There would also be some other unique consumables, similar to the Ritual of Life.

That makes me happy :) Seeing how much this alters the game, an item tree should be high priority.

Cassiel wrote:
nooK wrote:-No boots of sprinter? No dagger?

No item tree at all. Just some demo items that show off a few of the new features.

Fine, didn't know that.

Cassiel wrote:
nooK wrote:-New boat: the old one required some amount of skill, right now you can't even fuck it up? Also dislike the constant damage, why not scale it a bit? Balancing skills only with higher cd on low levels is no good gameplay mechanic imo.

I completely agree with you on scaling ults. It will probably happen.

Good.

Cassiel wrote:
nooK wrote:-Rat's gold passive: Adds no fun, boring mechanic, worst skill in O. I really thought the time of such passives was over.

Don't play the Mariner then. It's perfectly okay if there are heroes you don't like to play. One of the things I'd actually like to see more of in WC3 maps is heroes that support different play styles--think Timmy, Johnny and Spike. Gold Digger is a small step in that direction.

I don't get the appeal at all.
And not playing your before favourite hero seems hard :D

Cassiel wrote:
nooK wrote:-Pwnt! - fun on the first try, already annoying after the 3rd use. Using a normal ability on someone just isn't pwnt.

Nah, still fun.

Matter of personal choice I guess, just wanted to mention it.

Cassiel wrote:
nooK wrote:-Meat Hook: Really not digging the graphics, yet another unit targeted ability with no skill involved, just hook and then eat..

You kind of sound like those SC1 players complaining about the dip in micro requirements for SC2. Micro is one kind of skill, but it's not the kind of skill I personally value. I'd much rather see players focus on timing and position, among other things.

It are those aimable spells which make up for awesome moments.
But it's not only the unit target which bothers me, it's the whole skill. I think something more original would do ToB better justice.

Cassiel wrote:
nooK wrote:-Jimmy's passive: Don't know why you have removed cannibalize or splash dmg for such an boring passive skill. I think his old skillset was better hero design (except imba jew).

Same deal as Gold Digger.

Spawns just keep running when affected by it, and it's whether fun for the jimmy player nor the enemies. I get no joy from "hey he can't attack me half the time, because I did like.. nothing"

So two messed up heroes in my opinion, sadly rat and jimmy, the rest was improved a lot :)

Other stuff I like:
-New witch doctor, old mines were great but his new skills are awesome, especially love the bomb and the heal sfx!
-Starting with 3 skill points
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Re: Feedback

Postby Boolerian » Fri May 14, 2010 8:26 pm

I love the hook sfx, though it would maybe be better if it's a point click. Or maybe if, when you drag the unit back, if it encounters an obstacle (another unit, a rock) the chain would break, His Cleaver finally has animation, yeee!

Also, I was surprised by the stun durations and amount, but you can take care of that with spell reflect.
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Re: Feedback

Postby Fledermaus » Fri May 14, 2010 8:33 pm

nooK wrote:
Cassiel wrote:
nooK wrote:-Jimmy's passive: Don't know why you have removed cannibalize or splash dmg for such an boring passive skill. I think his old skillset was better hero design (except imba jew).

Same deal as Gold Digger.

Spawns just keep running when affected by it, and it's whether fun for the jimmy player nor the enemies. I get no joy from "hey he can't attack me half the time, because I did like.. nothing"

Wait, you think them not being able to attack from a passive is boring but having splash damage from a passive, or a click and forget heal over time is not?
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Re: Feedback

Postby windezz » Fri May 14, 2010 9:05 pm

You know it's beta when Allied almost won the game by having Jean to stack 6 Boots of Speed with 5% SP and suicide Flare. Unfortunately Flare does a lot less damage when it's slowed by DoTM's new ult. New "bullet time lulz" ftw. It's awesome and makes DoTM a must in team fights. But still...that kind of suicide dive does not seem right.

Need a few more cheap items with sockets. Sobi mask, strength belt, dex boots, etc? There are gems for the same effects, but there aren't a whole lot of low tier items with sockets to choose from, and it's just silly to waste gold for a caster on a dagger or circlet. As it is right now, just about everyone would buy only boots before saving gold for the items from saki/sorceror shop and their equivalents.

But since this thread mentioned item tree, I guess any problems with the current "demo" items should not persist in later versions.

5% spell power gem seems to enhance just about everything - stun length, spell damage, slow duration, etc. Sure that's a good idea?

Game could drag on once both sides are in a stalemate. But that's just ToB. Not sure what can be done about it.

Hopefully other heroes will be available soon?

The lack of WoNs and other dispelling methods make Pory so very nasty in the beginning - 2 skill points in that uh...flaming beetle dot and it's 40 damage per second for 20 seconds, not even the fountain could out heal it. Then again it's been a while and I don't quite remember if that spell could be dispelled or devoured in the previous versions.

Might be a good idea to make a timer so that the game will automatically start with default settings if whoever as Red fails at clicking on the "Start Game" button for whatever reasons. A 30-60 second countdown before game starts does not sound unreasonable.
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Re: Feedback

Postby Ensabahnur » Fri May 14, 2010 10:01 pm

Love the terrain.

Bring back Leto/Sashi/Maid for allies and Scion/Lock/Ward for UD.

Maybe I've been playing to much SC2 but the overall pace seems a bit slow.. units moving, abilities, etc..
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Re: Feedback

Postby kasabian » Fri May 14, 2010 10:20 pm

Just tried it 1v1 with my friend.

During the game mode selection screen, the texts on the right side box didn't dissapear when clicking on a new button, so they were few lines on top of one another.

My friend was on the undead side, we were trying 6 heroes each, and he chose all ud heroes, when his drow died, she didn't respawn at all.

Gonna try it on bnet now :D
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Re: Feedback

Postby Mengde » Fri May 14, 2010 11:16 pm

I just played with Fledermaus and some people from Clan ToB and it was great fun. A few observations:

I played DR first game. Her arrows seem a little overpowered. Like, Smite only every second and at range. Jesus. The single-target Silence-with-Damage ability is not bad. I don't have any real feelings on it. Haunt seems interesting, reminds me of old Holy Ghost. Combining it with the arrows is a neat idea. Fugue sucks ass. I can seize control of the spawns and have them be irritating, or I can continue to kill 50 mana every second on some hero while silencing another. Then I died and didn't come back (can't even say how I died... sorry), so I went and got some pasta and watched TV until we remade.

I played Rat second game. Love the new JRH. It's fun, it's a nice disable, etc. Great animation. Occasionally while chasing I would use it, the Rat would freeze, and a little "miss" would pop up over the guy I was chasing - this was usually during some heavy juking in the trees. (Love the new terrain, btw.) Pistol is a very tactical skill, busting it out on the BR at the right time is awesome. I like it, though the animation could use some more pizzazz - maybe a louder sound effect. Half the time I didn't know I'd been hit with it until my misfiring brain realized I had no attack button. Gold Digger, well, lets you farm. A decent ability. The AoE seems a bit weird though - sometimes it would hit all the units around me and sometimes only a couple. The sometimes-only-a-couple seemed to coincide with hitting Heroes with it. Possible bug? Anyway. New Boat. With the Blink Dagger gone I resigned myself to not being as good with it, but holy shit. Like, the old Boat required some planning, some skill, some luck, etc. This one is click-inside-the-base-and-murder-every-hero-at-the-fountain. And then, of course, you buy the item that refreshes your ult with a hero kill. I think I fired off three boats in a row at one point. Like, fucking no. I would change that item so it only resets the cooldown when you make the kill with another abiilty. Speaking of that item, I think it reset me on an assist at one point. Not sure if it was my imagination or not. Just double-check that. I would recommend killing Boat's range.

As for the rest of the heroes that I faced/teamed with but haven't played, just impressions:

Pory. Holy Jesus. The fire beetles of raping death. They can easily oneshot somebody. Just point-and-click. I'm sure you've been told this already, but dear God. Also, Antavanhi hits towers? Christ. Pory just seems like a motherfucker right now, which is not a bad thing considering she used to be a little underpowered in N.

SH. Love the new Healing Wave. Reverse Locust Swarm or something? Anyway it looks awesome. Pain Ward seems the same. I don't exactly know what Big Bad Voodoo does, but I know it summons a ton of dancing skeletons and that is fucking metal. Didn't get to see the stun mines, or whatever ability replaced them.

DotM. Oh it is so good to see him in action and useful again. Gotta say though, Blueshift is fucking crazy. There were points where he would cast it, use LT, and then we would get hit with a Boat, Antavanhi, Flare, etc etc. At the moment it doesn't seem like there's a good way to counter or prepare for it, and since it's not channeling it's especially scary. I don't want to scream nerf at everything, but I dunno.

Jean. Same old same old. She dies to a boat. Next.

Inquis. I still hate him with a fiery passion when he's fighting me. Spell reflection is hilarious and awesome, though when the magic shield reflects a bullet or a volley of sword swings I raise an eyebrow. (But whatever. If it only reflected "magical" abilities then it would not be that great.) His new ult is super cool too. Holy Fire, well, it's a DoT. Occasionally he'd hit me with some unspecified ability that would stun me - what is that? And could it have a unique buff so I know what the hell's going on?

BR. Love him, what you've done with him, etc. He looks and animates great and is a motherfucker in close quarters. He chased me to the Fountain, I went Blood Surge or whatever, he went Blood Surge, if I hadn't been at the fountain and using all my abilities he would have mutilated my ass. Great stuff.

Malf. He seems very crowd-control focused, I like that. Glad you kept the treants. His whirlwind-move seems crazy though. Just what is the range on it? Is it the new Warp? It's not overpowered or anything, but he reminds me a lot of the Prophet from DotA in terms of "hey you thought you escaped haha death bye." Except the Prophet is lame and Malf is kickass.

Toro. Hasn't changed much. Seemed effective.

Jimmeh. Love the fact that JEW is back at lower levels. Hook looks nice, so does Cleaver. Hook seems to bug a lot though, and the spell reflection on it pulls HIM to the Inquis - I'm sure this is on purpose, and it is fucking hilarious, but it seems a little weird nonetheless.

BM is much the same. Functional hero, never liked playing him much but now that the Warden's gone he's less fucked, which is good.

I hear you'll be bringing back the heroes that aren't in this version, and I look forward to that. Leto and Sashi were always my babies on Alliance, and Lock was always fun to play. Ward, Maid, and Scion can go die in a fire, but that's just me.

As for the items. Dunno how I feel about stacking Boots of Speed. They were always a "keeping up with the Joneses" item and now you have to buy three of them to stay competitive. Jean was running around with five of them like a retarded kid in a candy store whose ass was on fire and it was just crazy. I love socketing though. Just plain awesome. All the new items are fun and I can think of a lot of interesting combos - though do see my rant about the Rat above re: ultimate-cooldown-refresher-one.

Also, the fact that there is no more repairing. I like it. Speeds games up, keeps you from having to play hunt-the-workers. Instead of a slow expo-war slugging match the game turns into "oh fuck they're down there and there's one tower left do we divert or keep hammering their top fuck fuck" and I like it, especially with the complete lack of teleportation (sans Malf's whirlwind thing). I heard someone say Zeppelins were supposed to be in this one but didn't make it - leave them out, I say. Encourages a little teamwork and forethought as to who'll be where doing what.

I like the bloodbath mechanic. Not much else to say about that. Perfect for running away, killing things, etc etc.

I remember Cass saying at some point that he wanted ToB to be like the Street Fighter of AoSes - everyone is equally overpowered and awesome. Since this is a great idea, rather than nerfing people who are awesome, I would say boost everyone who is not yet awesome until they are.

Overall, I had a great time and will definitely be playing more in the future. I'm just Mengde @USEast, friend me if you're on.
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To bring the pieces back together, rediscover communication.
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Re: Feedback

Postby Myth » Sat May 15, 2010 12:04 am

Mengde wrote:I remember Cass saying at some point that he wanted ToB to be like the Street Fighter of AoSes - everyone is equally overpowered and awesome. Since this is a great idea, rather than nerfing people who are awesome, I would say boost everyone who is not yet awesome until they are.


I am a little bothered by everyone yelling about how OP things are, this early. The map's been out for like, 12 hours. While some heroes are very obviously beefed up, there have been changes across the board and I'm sure we'll learn to compensate for at least half of them. Except that fire beetle dot. *Cough.* My point is, let's have the map for a week or three, and then make decisions about what needs nerfed.

And yes, leave the Zeppelins out. And I dig the lack of workers and repairs. It's GREAT for game speed.
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Re: Feedback

Postby Synthetic Genius » Sat May 15, 2010 12:29 am

Mengde wrote:I played DR first game. Her arrows seem a little overpowered. Like, Smite only every second and at range. Jesus. The single-target Silence-with-Damage ability is not bad. I don't have any real feelings on it. Haunt seems interesting, reminds me of old Holy Ghost. Combining it with the arrows is a neat idea. Fugue sucks ass. I can seize control of the spawns and have them be irritating, or I can continue to kill 50 mana every second on some hero while silencing another. Then I died and didn't come back (can't even say how I died... sorry)


I managed to die and not respawn with DR as well, but I haven't had time to figure out exactly how it happened. I was haunted when I died, so I'll mess around with that and see if I can recreate it.

Mengde wrote:Occasionally he'd hit me with some unspecified ability that would stun me - what is that? And could it have a unique buff so I know what the hell's going on?


That's Inquis' gun skill, it stuns for few seconds and does a little pushback. He's definitely downright irritating to play against and can throw down some pretty absurd damage by himself.

I spent some time messing around with things, overall the changes are nice. One problem a friend of mine who plays on a Mac had was whenever he clicked on any of the shops outside the main base he'd disconnect instantly.

SH's AoE stun seems too hard to land. You've got almost zero chance of landing it on someone if they're paying attention. It pretty much requires another hero to set it up for you. His ult is hilarious, not only does it summon a horde of skeletons but they explode when it ends. I totally wasn't expecting that the first time I saw the ult and almost died because of it.

Autumn's Emissary being able to pull along his treants with his whirlwind skill is hilarious. It was great watching a whirlwind fly up and suddenly drop off a small swarm of treants. At first I was kind of unimpressed seeing 15-17 damage treants, but spellpower boosting them was a nice touch.

BM's Crimson Wake seems a lot slower than it was in N. It's almost impossible to land on someone running away from you.

Jean is pretty much the same, but I think Blinding Light could do with a better skill name. (Sunny D?)
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Re: Feedback

Postby windezz » Sat May 15, 2010 12:53 am

I suppose having just one socket on the boots somewhat offset the capability to stack them, but chances are the "real" items aren't in yet, so they aren't supposed to be used like this eventually.

Yeah the Fireflies might need to be toned down a bit, haven't played any game where no one complained about it. Particularly when Pory has a high blood meter built up and then unleashes the bugs...it's practically a guaranteed kill.

New boat requires no skill, 'nuff said.

More variety of gems might be nice? Several tiers of gems that increase in cost and quality? Possible to create gemword sets, similar to runewords in Diablo?

Pubs aren't used to the idea that all abilities need to be OP and awesome in their own ways, thus so far it's QQ all around.
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Re: Feedback

Postby Viikuna- » Sat May 15, 2010 2:45 am

I think you should be able to avoid most ( or maybe half )of firefly damage by simply staying on the move and running away from them.

It would make it viable to cast fireflies also to some allied melee hero or to yourself.



Also even though boots are not final items, they should be more situational and come with some prize. Im not saying there should be some DoE like -2 armor in boots, but some nice mechanic for making them a trategical choise instead of something you must have to be able to stay in the game.


Boat should be fukken strong. It the boat and it needs to be really scary and have great psychological effect to enemies. You just gotta make it harder to land perfectly or something.
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Re: Feedback

Postby nooK » Sat May 15, 2010 3:36 am

Fledermaus wrote:
nooK wrote:Spawns just keep running when affected by it, and it's whether fun for the jimmy player nor the enemies. I get no joy from "hey he can't attack me half the time, because I did like.. nothing"

Wait, you think them not being able to attack from a passive is boring but having splash damage from a passive, or a click and forget heal over time is not?

Cannibalize you have at least click to activate, know when to activate and when to stop.
The thing is, his current passive is just annoying, it sucks if you aren't able to attack him most of the time. The skill is awesome when it's used as an active ability like on Rat but not as a passive.

As said, Rat's pistol needs more recognisable sfx and add some small sfx for Redrum whenever his strength increases, giving you the feel of powering up.

Gone with the wind could use a one second longer casting time. This shouldn't be an escape skill. Also the scaling seems wrong to me, I think range should increase on each level + cooldown decrease.

Zeps out is very good, however I would love to see workers or repairing back in some way. Maybe even auto-repair, every 20 sec a computer controlled worker repairs the most damaged building for x sec. This would remove the worker micro
but give you this moments were you have to keep the enemies away for some minutes so he can save your tower.
It's just too much suicide and only cheese without them.

For the unit upgrades. It looks a bit strange with the portrait disappearing. I haven't touched editor for ages, but if I remember correctly there is a ability which allows all allies to control the unit. Therefore you could use this + 3 spellbooks + the "ability which costs gold" to make it look better.
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Re: Feedback

Postby KStolen » Sat May 15, 2010 3:57 am

DotM's ultimate is fucking awesome.
BR is a tank. He's disgustingly powerful.
Inquis is actually fun to play! Reflection is really cool.
Autumn's Emissary really gets around with that whirlwind of his.

DR's ultimate is pretty good, I dunno why Mengde doesn't like it. It's pretty amazing when enemy Heros are surrounded by their own troops, when a big push is being made, for example.

It's difficult to hit anything with SH's bombs.

Boat is fucking huge now and it's nearly impossible to miss with it.

Socketing is cool and the reliquary is really damn fun. Boots stacking seems a bit too much.

All in all, it's really fun to play, although I haven't been in a full 6v6 yet. Like Myth said, though, it'll take a little while until we see which parts are really imbalanced and which just seem that way right now.
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Re: Feedback

Postby nooK » Sat May 15, 2010 4:08 am

More stuff:

-Pirates bloodmeter is huuge even bigger than Jimmy's
-Bloodmeters in general could be a bit smaller, like decrease by 10 or 20%
-Bloodbath should have some cooldown, at least for the 20 sec it lasts, it feels strange without cd
-"571.7 hp treants" would look better if this was shortened to no digit behind the comma -> "571 hp treants"
-Ultimate refresher is ridiculous
-DotM passive feels like a filler
-Crimson wake should be a bit faster
Last edited by nooK on Sat May 15, 2010 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feedback

Postby Viikuna- » Sat May 15, 2010 4:10 am

Just an idea, but I think Inquiz ulti would be cooler if its active part would be like an aura that consumes mana over time when activated.

It could have pretty small AoE for starters, and incerease with levels and spell power.


Id like to see inquiz running to weak allies in some big battle, trying to protect them with his presence. Or the whole team in one bunch around inquiz, trying to protect against reflectable spells.
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Re: Feedback

Postby I_dohknow » Sat May 15, 2010 5:22 am

Well my opinion is
1) Best terrain i ever saw

2) All the Human heros seem ok (havent tried all yet)

3) I think the undead heros need fixing e.g pirate boat should do 1200 or 1400 max, sh needs to be a little stronger like his wards and bbv needs fixing right?, oh and pory's fire last too long, it one shots certain heros even if it's at low lvl.

4) Boots of speed shouldnt stack.

5) When i was playing the enemy upgraded there units but there was alot of lag afterwards, not sure if you know about that, am not even sure if its the upgrade units causing it as well. I heard it has something to do with fps?

6) Oh and shouldnt there be workers to repair towers?

7) If there is no such thing as blimps anymore, can you put tp srolls atleast? Maps kinda huge to walk around

8) Final i love the game.. just cant wait for it all to be done.
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Re: Feedback

Postby the_best_killer_007 » Sat May 15, 2010 6:18 am

tower damage is way 2 low man plz
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Re: Feedback

Postby I_dohknow » Sat May 15, 2010 7:58 am

Just saw another bug. Spells hit pory in ulti.
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Re: Feedback

Postby Viikuna- » Sat May 15, 2010 8:45 am

Fireflies need some max speed they can move. Deffinetly. Running doewsnt help at all, right now. They can even fly inside Malfs cyclone and follow you to the fountain and kill you.


Kudzu rapes, btw.
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Viikuna-
 
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Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:27 am

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