When we gonna get rid of cars/tanks?

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Postby Cassiel » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:29 pm

Jester wrote:My favorite was the one where rbm anally raped Cassiel with the inquisitor and Cass removed one of his slows the next version as a result. =(

I liked the the double slow inquise, he was fun.

Effectively he had 3 slows, not 2--that was when Purify had a 5-second cooldown. Damn straight I changed it. 4 HU chasing Jimmy more than halfway across the map through multiple AMS and heal pots is ridiculous. And vault cheese is still an issue. They're another stupid holdover from AoS: Epic.
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Postby Merlin » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:32 pm

It is a pretty big issue. It's really quite easy to down that vault, and the game ends soon after one falls. Not always, though.

There's a fairly simple way to fix that problem, in my mind. Remove the vaults entirely and find another way to supply money to the players.

I remember an expo idea where the keeps would provide the income. Expo keeps grant 20 gold (to the team) every however many seconds it is (10 seconds?), and the middle lane keeps provide 10 each. This way, losing an expo is a problem, but not the end of the game.

Another issue is that towering the expos is a poor choice, when you can tower middle and be much more effective. For one, towers in an expo are quite easy to destroy. They have much less cover fire than ones built at middle keeps (expo towers are often engaging enemy spawns. middle keep towers; not.) Second, middle lanes have a tendency to build up very large spawn waves that end up being quite damaging to the main if there's no player intervention. This time spent clearing the large waves is time spent away from defending an expo or the vault. This is how the UD win most of their games. Since they are more suited for killing heroes, they are much more likely to tower both middle lanes first. Silence is another game-winner, but that's different issue.

Even after the middle lanes are towered, it's pretty rare that a team (that knows what they're doing) will tower an expo. It's a large amount of gold that can be destroyed quite rapidly.

Ex. All decent BR's know what to do when they spot an expo tower. Right-click it. Go afk. (imba issue, btw)

I haven't thought of a good solution for this. You can't really go and remove the towers, because they're a part of the game and a strategy in themselves. Unless you want to copy what AotZ has done (which I think is brilliant, Rising_Dusk), which is have "heroes" that you hire from the keep in that expo that will "train" extra spawns and defend the base. You also certainly can't remove the expos because that's also a major staple in the TOB games.

I'm sure most of you know this and I'm not saying anything new, so I'll just shut up now.
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Postby diab knows his password » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:38 pm

Make the vault and its support units invulnerable until the bottom or top expansion (depending on what force you are on) is destroyed. Done.

Or at least, that's how I would do it.
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Postby Merlin » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:44 pm

But that feels like DOTA, though. That's what they did to fix their backdooring problems, and it begs the question: Why the hell can't I attack them this way? To which of course the answer is, it's the lazy solution to a map that doesn't work well.
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Postby diab knows his password » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:48 pm

Another way would be having your expansion town halls manage your force's additional money then.

There are 4 keeps. So do whatever the vault has and split it up between the keeps...

I like doing cheese. Because it pisses off other teams.
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Postby Merlin » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:58 pm

I said that in my long-ass post. D:

Bleh, I need to learn to soundbite my writing. ;_;

Also, yeah. Vault cheesing and pretty much all cheesing is great fun, but only because you're more effective than the game intends by being a douche. Malf + 12 mules makes an entire expo (or even a middle keep) fall in under a minute if there's no one to stop it. Bit longer for the middle keep, and you generally need some assitance.
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Postby Cassiel » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:28 pm

We said we were going to make that change back when we were working on it Merlin. Remove the vault and have each keep count for 1/3 of your income. It's actually an important balance issue because by destroying an enemy keep you're depriving yourself of exp and gold from their spawns, so you need to balance that out by dialing down income as well. This in addition to modifying troop upgrades so they don't increase the amount of exp and gold the other team gets for killing your units.
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Postby Merlin » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:37 am

I'm not sure I agree that the winner of the expo battles is affected negatively. Three reasons:
1. TOB isn't farm-intensive. Most heroes are equip quite cheaply, and just reaching level 18 should (collectively) allow you to tower middle fully, or near.
2. In a game where both teams are of about equal skill, it's rare that either manages to down the other's keep before already being a high level. Simply because you're not powerfull enough to fight an enemy that has a nearby fountain.
3. Most of this farming/exp gaining is done on the middle lanes anyway, because the spawn waves are larger and the druids/necros are there.

I don't understand the troop upgrades bit. :o
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Postby GraveI » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:17 am

I'm pretty sure in TFT vanilla, when you upgrade your troops they give more exp. So Cass would have had to ahve modified that.

I think.
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Postby Merlin » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:34 pm

Oh? I thought TOB had exp handled by a customized 'system' written using jass. Or was that what was going to happen? I can't remember.
Last edited by Merlin on Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Deacon (AYC) » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:38 pm

Cass knows JASS, and I remember him saying in that AOM thread that he taught vile it. Still, I don't know if it is in ToB itself, as you said Merlin.
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Postby Drobie » Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:20 pm

Merlin wrote:I don't understand the troop upgrades bit. :o


Sorry if I'm wrong, but I think he is refering to giving the enemy side faster exp/gold when towering.
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Postby Gorbadoc » Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:43 pm

Experience is completely triggered.

There genuinely should be multiple paths to victory. Being in the right place at the right time to win a fight-- that's strategy, and should require thought. Immune buildings are one less opportunity to out-maneuver your opponent. But, yes, persistent, unstoppable cheese is annoying.

Regarding money, the following is currently a stalemate:
All destroyable UD buildings destroyed, Human vault destroyed and cash reserves spent, and UD have Jimmy and/or Porphyria.

On the original issue: I like tanks. They're fun, they're useful, and they're risky. Any hero can beat a tank, but if no heroes are around, a tank can be as good as a hero-- absorbing damage and clearing spawns. This gives an advantage to the player who can micro multiple locations at once. If anything, I would change some of the anti-tank spells-- the UD need a little less tank stun, while the allies need a little more.
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Postby Merlin » Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:36 pm

Movement is currently a strategy, as you'll cerntainly know is the case with manual blocking, and escape route anticipation. Heroes that control the battlefield, like Toro, use movement as their main strategy (Moove is directly affected by his position in respect to the target, and Mad Cow was designed to aid Toro in out-maneuvering targets.) This, undoubtedly, was the reason he was made large and difficult to navigate. The dagger is bought to make up for it.

Cheesing should not be made impossible, for just that reason. It removes a strategy. It shouldn't be as easy as it currently is, though.

Warden can't beat a tank. Unless she has a legacy or something.
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Postby Gorbadoc » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:05 pm

Spawn wave supported by warden versus spawn wave supported by tank. Also consider what each side stands to gain and lose; the tank can't safely push as far as the towers without additional support.

Even in the middle of nowhere the warden has the advantage; she can smack the tank around, taking no damage while it runs away. Fighting is risky for the tank; the warden can warp out as soon as her hp get low, and meanwhile the tank is stationary and losing hp, just waiting for a dotm, scion, pirate, shadow hunter, or porphyria to come along (porphyria counts because ignis works even when the tank runs, and porphy is sturdy enough to pursue with minimal risk so warden can warp back to her after healing).
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Postby InitialD » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:52 am

When are we going to get a Quick game mode? Heroes take about 35 mins to get to the highest level yet it takes about 75 mins to finish the game. Staying in the game at the highest level for 40 mins is boring.
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Postby RibbuM » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:36 pm

Yeah, CIAO lost a good handful of battles. Very few when the game was in it's prime and WC3 was still everyone's primary game, though. Core CIAO had gone undefeated.

The battles with Zhen were fun. Most of our battles with FAT were good fights, although it usually came down to 3 or 4 ciao's and a backup or two, usually played on West and they were always whichever version's race was considered the strongest at that time. They were good though. Cow was probably the best player and all around team leader not named Drayven or Kaz that I've ever seen play.

I remember we beat a 3 or 4 FAT team using carebear names on West.

Also, I apparently missed some awesome east vs west duel due to the fact that I was feeding my chocobo on Final Fantasy 11 and I'm pretty sure Drayven and several others will never let me live that down. =(

Man... nostalgia.
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Postby Vladimer » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:53 pm

So, whatever happened to that Chocobo?
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Postby pix » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:23 pm

Fuck Zhen in the ass. Fuck WHO in the ass.
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