Suggestions Part Dieux

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Postby Synthetic Genius » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:34 am

Are you kidding that was one of the worst ideas I gave you, topped only by the caravan replacement for a gold vault.
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Postby Gorbadoc » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:36 am

Protect the Kodos!
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Postby Kant » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:28 am

Ok so, I'm keeping this simple.


a) ToB victory conditions are out of date.

b) Once expansions are down (sometimes even one will suffice) teams automatically declare good game.

c) Main town is now irrelevant besides being the side goal or even the needed distraction to get the expansions.

d) Most of the game is made around the expansions, and its their destruction that motivates the current strategies; strategies motivate teamplay; teamplay motivates players to play ToB.

e) I would like to see a version of a ToB map soon where there instead of having 1 main and 2 expansions, we would have 2 stronger "expansions" and no main at all.

f) You could still keep the 4 lanes; make the middle ones be protected by 2 small contingent of towers (like 2 smaller versions of the current outposts / expansions). Then make them feed the 2 new "expansions", if the creeps could get past by the middle outposts;

g) When both "expansions" are down, game is over.

This isnt a critic to the actual map. Players and time spent on it has spoken for all of us. I get the most fun defending both expansions. People declare game's over when they are down. Main needs to be gone.
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Postby erwtenpeller » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:50 am

So basically what you are saying is to make the expantions into two "mains" and make main into an "expantion", size and importance wise?

I quite like that. Where would shops go, though?
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Postby Dr.Willy » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:16 pm

Players are not attacking expansions because they are expansions, but because they are the weakest target.
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Postby erwtenpeller » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:43 pm

Yeah obviously, but why not exploit that fact more and intergrate it into gameplay? we all know the game is pretty much forfeit if you have lost both expantions, but it can still drag on for like an hour if you have a strong team. With having two "mains" that become the objectives to destroy instead of the actual main, you dont have to sit through that additional home stretch.
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Postby Kant » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:21 pm

This would even be complementary to the fact fountains may cease to exist. If thats true, having slightly harder exps might compensate. If its not, it still owns because players will have something really achieve instead of wasting one exp or two and hoping the other team will gg.

The problem never were the expansions. A good team can stretch a game to infinity, like erwt said. And any game that is ended 99% of the times with surrender has to have something going wrong.
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Postby SamuraiWindu » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:40 pm

That is an interesting idea but I think your missing the point. The way ToB stands now, the expansions are targeted because destroying an enemy expansion creates an extra influx of spawns focused on the enemy’s main base. These extra spawns make it so much easier to destroy the enemy main that it is worth focusing so much attention to them. Also, neglecting the expansions gives the enemy team the opportunity to destroy your expansions much easier, granting them more spawns focused on your team’s main base.

What you suggested, tuning the two middle lanes into expansions that feed the side bases, would simply shift the attention from the outer edges of the map to the center of the map. I think this would ultimately hurt the game dynamics for several reasons:
a) The middle lanes would not really be middle lanes anymore, since the spawns would first be redirected toward the side bases before continuing along to fight.
b) The lack of middle lanes would make it much easier to “ambush” the expansions from “behind” since there would be no spawns in the direct path toward them.
c) Since the new expansions would be in the center of the map it would be much easier to move from one to the other, much like people do now. This would make the center expansions more like one base than two. So if one goes down, they both go down.
d) Once a side base is destroyed, where will the spawns go? To the other side base?

You do have some valid points about the game. It’s just that your solution doesn’t fit the bill. There does seem to be too much emphasis on the expansions. The way the game stands, the expansions are extremely important and therefore become the focal point. A higher risk, or lower reward associated with sieging an expansion may serve some good. Also, alternative methods to assaulting the main base might add to the game.

I once made a basic AoS with “aboveground” and “underground” areas. Units traveled between areas through caves (Warp Gates). Something similar to this may add to ToB. Underground paths could provide new “back doors” and open areas of the map that are rarely used (such as the top-left and bottom-right corners of the map).

The point is not to change to goal of the game to fit the way people currently play the game. If you want to make players more inclined to focus on the main goal, it is better to provide alternative methods of achieve it.
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Postby Cassiel » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:10 pm

Kant wrote:The problem never were the expansions. A good team can stretch a game to infinity, like erwt said. And any game that is ended 99% of the times with surrender has to have something going wrong.

What a bizarre train of thought. How did games being stretched out lead you to the conclusion that the main should be removed instead of, you know, making it so games can't be stretched out so much? Currently the map is made so that a good team can steamroll their opponents, as in they can win without losing a single tower. That's just silly. As a player, you should always have to make choices. You can't win a game of chess without sacrificing some pieces, and ideally you won't be able to win a game of ToB without losing one or two lanes.
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Postby Kant » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:29 pm

So what are you making to make games last less than they are already lasting? My derrailing has mearly followed what tob players are doing at the moment, which is do not giving a damn about reaching main. If thats a product of foreseeing, or simple deduction, it still doesnt hide the fact most of the game is set around the expansions. In fact, if you weaken down the expansions or draw out fountains you wont see people getting to main any faster; you will just see tob games ending faster, because people will still end the game once an expansion or two are down. Even if they are main target, because logically they will weaken down main city, the fact is all strategies and playing efforts are at the moment entirely focused on bringing down the expansions, while being able to defend our own. Isnt there a way to make people coordinate defense / attacking stances without having a city that no one reaches? Like ever?

My problem was how to get you guys attention. Saying main to dissapear seems to had the desired effect. No matter how you work it up, and no matter how inventive and innovating it is, if players cut it in half, then there is something that doesnt belong in there. And if you played some in the last months, you would know main is a void piece in the middle of that chess table. I respect your thoughts, but it has got to exist some other way to drive this game over.
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Postby SamuraiWindu » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:23 pm

That follows my suggestion of providing alternative means to the destroying the main base. Currently there is but one effective strategy to destroying the main base. That strategy is eliminating the opposing expansions and then leading friendly spawns to the enemy main base. I gave one suggestion of underground caves that can provide back doors. Depending on the way it is implemented, it could be good or bad for game dynamics. This is just one suggestion. I imagine there are a multitude of features that could be included in the game, and in turn be countered to give your faction an advantage. If you really want to draw players away from the expansions, there has to be some other, possibly greater, incentive to do so.

With that said, let’s step back for a second and consider the bigger picture. Is it really that important to avoid having the expansions the focal point? ToB is still fun up until people start quitting. Even if a multitude of alternative methods for destroying the enemy main base are implemented, people would probably still quit early once they believe failure is eminent. This is a problem in almost every online game. The problem lies in the fact that the players are not invested enough in the game to bother sticking it out. So the challenge is to keep the player engaged throughout the game.

Ever notice how some people will quit after about five minutes because they died early? It is because they feel that they are doomed to failure due to the impending disadvantage of less experience than their opposition. This is very similar to the feelings associated with loosing an expansion.
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Postby SamuraiWindu » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:29 pm

I think we need to define the problem a little better before we look for solutions. Is the problem the fact that there is such emphasis on the expansions? Or is it the fact that people leave after the expansions are destroyed?
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Postby TATA_Box » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:03 pm

Kant wrote:My derrailing has mearly followed what tob players are doing at the moment, which is do not giving a damn about reaching main.


Thats not really true. Most players tower mid and it often happens that huge creepwaves attack main and kill half of the main base. Often, if your enemies team has towered a lot more then your team, one hero of your team has to watch mid all the time. So the player is missing in defending or pushing at the side lanes.
I often have witnessed games where mid was killed before even one expansion was destroyed cause of towering.

Of course most of the game is about defending the expansions. But i don`t think there is something wrong about it. If you kill the expansions you just have 3 ways to attack and more suporting creeps.
If you want mid to be more important, put a fountain at those spots behind the 4 mid towers. ;) .. But I admit that this might be a rather stupid idea.
Talking about fountains.. I don`t think removing is a good idea.. but well.. All those long runs back to main might be a bit exhausting. (and boring).
That`s one thing i don`t like about dota. You lure behind a tree.. wait for your victim .. gank him.. and go back to main refill mana. You have to run all the time.. unless you buy those travel boots.
Talking about critisism.. i don`t like that consumables get removed too.
One difference between ToB and dota is in my opinion, that in ToB.. you need much more skill.. or call it experience.. to become a real good player.
When i play dota.. with all those so called dota pros.. well.. i at least got a chance.. There are your heroes and meh... nothing special about them but item whoring etc.
But the thing which makes tob special and unique are the consumables and the right use of it. Wands, AMS and pots.
It`s always nice if pirat boats maiden and afterwards uses jolly, but maiden instantly pressed pot. <--- that`s skill. And that`s the thing i like about ToB.
It`s full of suprises. If you remove instant pots all those sweet gameplay moments will disapear. In my opinion it`s a step back. Plus: I doubt that this change will improve balance. Boat, Flare, StunGP and other instant high damage spells will need a nerf. If pirat buys invis boots.. boats you and gives you jolly? ... Ok.. you might survive with 300 HP .. but then? Press the timed heal pot and run.. until your healed your dead. Usually in such a situation , you use a pot. Now, at least in IHs boating isn`t thaat easy..(well its quiet easy i know... but noone would boat a full HP maiden... without pots everyone would do it , cause she can`t escape anyways.. at least if warden takes care a bit). Anyways.. i guess, most of the changes and "new" features are already developed and impleneted... but in my opinion, and yes, i of course don`t know the details yet, think those changes are , like i said, a step back degrading gameplay a lot.
Last edited by TATA_Box on Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby SamuraiWindu » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:10 pm

I did not write that. Kent did.
Kant wrote:So what are you making to make games last less than they are already lasting? My derrailing has mearly followed what tob players are doing at the moment, which is do not giving a damn about reaching main. If thats a product of foreseeing, or simple deduction, it still doesnt hide the fact most of the game is set around the expansions. ...
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Postby TATA_Box » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:20 pm

Yeye, i changed it.
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Postby Cassiel » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:00 pm

Kant wrote:My problem was how to get you guys attention. Saying main to dissapear seems to had the desired effect.

Why do you think you need to get our attention? Do you think you know something we don't? Are you going to enlighten us with your great insight? Dude, you don't even see the enormous hole in what you think is the problem.
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Postby Cassiel » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:16 pm

SamuraiWindu wrote:I once made a basic AoS with “aboveground” and “underground” areas. Units traveled between areas through caves (Warp Gates). Something similar to this may add to ToB. Underground paths could provide new “back doors” and open areas of the map that are rarely used (such as the top-left and bottom-right corners of the map).

The terrain has received a modest makeover, which is just to keep it playable until I have time to make something entirely new. The old vaults are gone, and all that area, including those corners, is gone from the map. Waygates are gone too.

I considered using caves, and even had some in at one point at the out-of-base merchant shops, but they look like shit. With a custom doodad I may add them into the all new terrain though. I'm not sure from your description if you had actual caves or just used the cave model as a waygate, but I'm talking some actual caves, as in you enter them, the minimap changes, nobody else can see you anymore, etc. You can have multiple layers of terrain, as long as they don't interact with one another directly. Like we could have a sky layer too, up on floating islands with bridges spanning between them, but if would have to be made in such a way that you can't interact directly with the normal terrain layer from there.
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Postby theboogleman » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:08 pm

I want to refute this idea about the expansion being the crux of the map. People are just in a rut at the moment, expansions are just the easiest way to play. When i'm feeling bored as maiden I push mid hard, it puts the opposition in a different position, then switiching between mid and expo as well as hitting mid from behind. If you eliminate mid then you have two options, attack top or bot and keep an airship at both that way everyone can move anywhere anytime.

This being said it all irrelivent anyway since this is all based around N with O hopefully changing things. So what's the point theorycrafting really except to grow our epeens?
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Postby Gorbadoc » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:22 pm

K, back to good suggestions, then. I've only ever loved games featuring either the line "Don't look into the death star or you will die," or "I am Error." Include both, and O will surely be the most awesome game ever.
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Postby SamuraiWindu » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:26 pm

Cassiel wrote:I'm not sure from your description if you had actual caves or just used the cave model as a waygate.
The map I made has an aboveground area that is mirrored by an equally sized underground area. I used black space between the two levels large enough to prevent attacks and line-of-sight reaching through. Each cave aboveground connected to a cave underground. The caves themselves are represented by a cave-terrain doodle and the actual waygates used the zone indicator model. It looks like crap, but it gets the point across and it’s effective. I am not too big on aesthetics, so I didn’t worry too much what it looked like. What is important, to me anyway, is the functionality. Also, since the terrain aboveground is equivalently mirrored belowground, I made an ability that allows a unit to burrow down to the lower level or up into the ground level depending where it is on the map. It is pretty simple too. It just instantly moves the unit to its current position offset by the height of one level.

I also made a mansion map with multiple levels. It features a sort of hide-and-seek/tag game. This map also has multiple levels accessible via staircases, which function similar to caves. Units have a jump ability, which allows them to jump from higher levels to lower levels: there is a balcony, which overlooks a dummy lower level. Upon leaping off the balcony, and onto the dummy level, the unit would instantly teleport to the actual area.

I don’t know how well something like this would fit ToB. I just figured I’d throw it out there.
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Postby Cassiel » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:39 pm

SamuraiWindu wrote:I used black space between the two levels large enough to prevent attacks and line-of-sight reaching through.

I'd just redraw the camera bounds so that as far as anyone can tell there is no cave unless they're in it.
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Postby SamuraiWindu » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:48 pm

I did that too. But you still need adequate space between levels. The problem is attacks can still go past black space, as we can see currently in ToB by the vaults. Even with line-of-sight blockers, a unit with shared vision will allow attacks to pass through.
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Postby CantelopeBandit » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:23 pm

Cassiel wrote: Waygates are gone too.


QQ
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Postby Cassiel » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:02 pm

Playable terrain size went from 148x116 to 128x116, and they really aren't necessary.
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Postby theboogleman » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:13 pm

Implement hero launching cannons plz.
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