Rogue changes

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Postby Mengde » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:21 pm

...Didn't you quit, Whatcha? It's like being angry over the Panda getting taken out when you don't own a WCIII CD.
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Postby EzekieL » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:02 am

I may just have to renew my account for a month to play with this. :D
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Postby FireStar » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:48 pm

Hey EzekieL, do you play on proudmoore?
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Postby GraveI » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:58 am

http://worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html

New talent calculator.

Wtf is up with poisons being given a chance to dispel. Blizzard said they would never give anything a chance to resist dispel when it came to debuffs. Where's warlock chance to resist. That would go a long way to fixing the affliction tree with regards to it having other uses then Shadow Mastery endgame.
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Postby Whatcha » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:31 pm

it's because it's the only snare rogues have.

It's still a shit talent, I'd take anything else over it =/

oh, and my talent build will remain exactly the same from patch 1.11->1.12.

Pretty much exactly the same, save maxed out EA (which got nerfed along with KS yay?)
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Postby GraveI » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:17 am

HEY WHATCHA

QUIT YER BITCHING

# Garrote, Eviscerate, and Rupture now all scale with Attack Power. The previously announced Eviscerate book will still be made available in an undisclosed location. While we had always planned to scale these abilites at a point in the future, we felt that the rank upgrade for Eviscerate and damage increase for Garotte would provide a well needed boost in the current game and carry these abilities until the scaling mechanic was implemented. Our ultimate goal to scale the abilities in a future update was decided to be moved ahead, and the current plan is to implement scaling for these abilities in 1.12, instead of in a later update.
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Postby Serra » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:48 am

Whatcha you're a fucking tool for complaining that Combat and Assassination got no love. Of every fucking class Rogues have always had two of the best trees and Subtlety - they buff Subtlety to hell and you QQ about the others. The only people who gave a damn if Evis scaled were the people with the absolute top-most gear who already pump 500 DPS without blinking. And guess what? Slice and Dice is STILL going to be more valuable for people with 1k AP, 30 crit and 15 hit.

Weapon Skill is huge. Chance to resist dispel is huge (not sure if any of you complainers have played a Priest in organized PvP, but dispelling shit is expensive and time-consuming when you should be actually healing. The only things Rogues have ever had to complain about is being mauled by Frost Mages (which they should be, their complete antithesis), being outdamaged by Fury Warriors (which has been addressed for all raiding intents and purposes through bonus weapon skill and an even stronger aggro clear), and being forced to spec combat to compete in DPS (which guess what, happens to every class, wah).

P.S. - If you expected EA to stack with Sunder even though it has been thoroughly discussed since release, you're a noob.
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Postby Whatcha » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:44 am

Serra wrote:Whatcha you're a fucking tool for complaining that Combat and Assassination got no love. Of every fucking class Rogues have always had two of the best trees and Subtlety - they buff Subtlety to hell and you QQ about the others. The only people who gave a damn if Evis scaled were the people with the absolute top-most gear who already pump 500 DPS without blinking. And guess what? Slice and Dice is STILL going to be more valuable for people with 1k AP, 30 crit and 15 hit.

The sub tree is horrible, its the ulitily tree for a class meant to dps, and dps only. Obviously I'm talking about PvE since all rogues need for PvP is a some cooldown reductions and maybe something to stop kiting.
Oh, look, what was this whole talent "review" about? Thats right, adding shitty talents to sub when we don't need it/can't get it. The furthest I can go into sub is about 25 points deep. 18 for assassination, 8 for combat, 25 in sub. Thats why this talent tree fails in every way possible. Sub is obviously ment for daggers/hemo, but when dagger rogues can only go 25 points into sub while they add all these useless talents without streamlining talent points, it fails.
Now, the new version of the talent review seems to be a bit better. They are moving Opportunity which is fucking hot for pve rogues (which means combat dagger can get WE making them still worth while) but they still haven't touched our PvE dps compared to other classes that can dps and provide amazing ultitiy and our cooldowns for pvp. Whatever though, I guess I'll have to live with being a god every 5 minutes.
Oh, and for SnD, is it that hard to give us atleast an option of what finisher to use? Right now, unless you're SF specced, there is no point of using evis unless you have a shitload of crit. SS's with epics can do more damage then a non-crit evis. Amazing when a combo point builder than outdamage a combat point finisher?
Weapon Skill is huge. Chance to resist dispel is huge (not sure if any of you complainers have played a Priest in organized PvP, but dispelling shit is expensive and time-consuming when you should be actually healing. The only things Rogues have ever had to complain about is being mauled by Frost Mages (which they should be, their complete antithesis), being outdamaged by Fury Warriors (which has been addressed for all raiding intents and purposes through bonus weapon skill and an even stronger aggro clear), and being forced to spec combat to compete in DPS (which guess what, happens to every class, wah).

Chance to dispell is retarded. Every class that can dispell poison, we don't need them against them. Paladins? They don't die. Druids? They run away for help and we can't stop them. Priests? Well, priests are maybe the only ones that it can be semi-useful, but I doubt people are going to sink 5 talents for a TEN PERCENT CHANCE of resisting dispell. Oh shit, you have to dispell once more every 10 poison proccings. QQ. And Serra, any raiding rogue that gets imp feint is a. retarded, b. retarded. Guess what? You don't need to feint if you have a half decent tank. Only fight where feint might be important is ony or vael. And you only use feint on vael because you have unlimited energy. I'm sure I could dps just fine without feint if I timed the vanish right and the tanks can you know, tank?
Vanish > feint in any fucking situation, feint is useless. It clears the damage of one crit backstab every 10 seconds for one tick of energy. Ie adding 2 more seconds on 6 second backstab (after you're at 0 energy)
And no rogue was bitching about speccing combat to do damage, rogues were bitching that swords were going to be better than daggers with the new WE talent. Combat daggers gives up everything to do dps a tad better than a combat swords rogue. But they fixed that so yay.
And apparently, a lot of fights in Naxx aren't agro limited. Hell, even with a good tank, fury warriors can deal a shitload of damage with the right buffs/trinkets (BoS easy mode and 80- threat ftw?) and mages got a nice chunk of -agro too. All this combined with non-agro sensative fights means that rogues are getting less and less useful while fury warriors and mages are getting more and more attractive.
Hmm, for a class that offers NOTHING but dps to a raid, I damn well expect to be number 1 in almost every fucking encounter.
P.S. - If you expected EA to stack with Sunder even though it has been thoroughly discussed since release, you're a noob.

And you're a tard for not doing your research. Our CM pretty much said that EA will stack with sunder, which is what made rogues so fucking pissed when he took it back.
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Postby Serra » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:15 pm

The sub tree is horrible, its the ulitily tree for a class meant to dps, and dps only. Obviously I'm talking about PvE since all rogues need for PvP is a some cooldown reductions and maybe something to stop kiting.

This is different from the Arcane/Demonology/Survival trees how? If you think Rogues need love in PvP you need to stop Ambushing the Wrath FC in WSG and start Cheap Shotting the Priest keeping him up.

Oh, look, what was this whole talent "review" about? Thats right, adding shitty talents to sub when we don't need it/can't get it. The furthest I can go into sub is about 25 points deep. 18 for assassination, 8 for combat, 25 in sub. Thats why this talent tree fails in every way possible. Sub is obviously ment for daggers/hemo, but when dagger rogues can only go 25 points into sub while they add all these useless talents without streamlining talent points, it fails.

I'm not going to argue that the way you spec is wrong, but I think I'm right and I disagree with you so...

Now, the new version of the talent review seems to be a bit better. They are moving Opportunity which is fucking hot for pve rogues (which means combat dagger can get WE making them still worth while) but they still haven't touched our PvE dps compared to other classes that can dps and provide amazing ultitiy and our cooldowns for pvp. Whatever though, I guess I'll have to live with being a god every 5 minutes.

Haven't touched your DPS? A decked combat rogue can't even be TOUCHED in single-target DPS - and Blade Fury makes double-target every 2 minutes (omg not 120 seconds!) retarded. And if by dependant on CDs you mean Sprint for when you fuck up with Stealth, Vanish for when a mage does what mages do, and Evasion for when Shaman try to melee a rogue and get stomped than yeah, you suck without them.

Oh, and for SnD, is it that hard to give us atleast an option of what finisher to use? Right now, unless you're SF specced, there is no point of using evis unless you have a shitload of crit. SS's with epics can do more damage then a non-crit evis. Amazing when a combo point builder than outdamage a combat point finisher?

Fuck options. My mage pushed the same two buttons for hours at a time. Now you don't care that Evis doesn't suck, which was your original complaint, now it's that SND is too good in comparison (which it is) and that Evis should be buffed to the point where you get to push the other button once in a while. It's not SS that does the damage in high-end raiding, it's the white damage, it's the part that scales with your gear faster because SS doesn't scale with gear as effectively as white damage. Therefore reducing your dependancy on energy is the name of the game.

Chance to dispell is retarded. Every class that can dispell poison, we don't need them against them. Paladins? They don't die. Druids? They run away for help and we can't stop them.

So don't get the talent if you don't like it. I'm not talking 1v1 dueling, you're right, it'd be stupid. I'm talking organized PvP where a crippling poison rank 2 on a FC wrecks an entire extraction run.

Priests can't dispel poison (QQ indeed).

Rogues get Feint and Vanish and a never-ending passive threat reducer. Mages get... Ice Block. Warlocks get... MD? Fury Warriors get... die? If you're the kind of person who blames all your threat failures on the tank, you're the kind of person who would probably whine endlessly about a class you don't play anymore for reasons that are cyclical and short-sighted. Oh wait.

Vanish > feint in any fucking situation, feint is useless. It clears the damage of one crit backstab every 10 seconds for one tick of energy. Ie adding 2 more seconds on 6 second backstab (after you're at 0 energy)

And it has a substantial cooldown, no shit it's better.

And no rogue was bitching about speccing combat to do damage, rogues were bitching that swords were going to be better than daggers with the new WE talent. Combat daggers gives up everything to do dps a tad better than a combat swords rogue. But they fixed that so yay.
And apparently, a lot of fights in Naxx aren't agro limited. Hell, even with a good tank, fury warriors can deal a shitload of damage with the right buffs/trinkets (BoS easy mode and 80- threat ftw?) and mages got a nice chunk of -agro too. All this combined with non-agro sensative fights means that rogues are getting less and less useful while fury warriors and mages are getting more and more attractive.

Fury Warriors will be more attractive from a brute force PoV until Rage generation is nerfed or Energy is buffed, it's a game mechanic you can't get around. You're right, mages post 1.11 are pretty much the best PvE DPS in threat-sensitive fights. It's too bad they have to sacrifice damage for enough health to survive a error and enough mana to last that fight. Poor rogues, only having to focus on hit, crit and attack power. Especially with how little resistance matters in Naxx.

Hmm, for a class that offers NOTHING but dps to a raid, I damn well expect to be number 1 in almost every fucking encounter.

And what the fuck do you think Mages and Warlocks rolled their class for? Water and healthstones? Your expectations are stupid.

And you're a tard for not doing your research. Our CM pretty much said that EA will stack with sunder, which is what made rogues so fucking pissed when he took it back.

Mage rep said Mages would NEVER see a buff to how much water is produced because the devs were satisfied with 4/cast. But then again, CMs aren't Devs, and what they speak rarely means shit. I guess if you did your research you'd find that this is, in fact, the LAST review and everything that's happened to Rogues has happened already, and nobody cares anymore.
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Postby GraveI » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:58 pm

Whatcha wrote:Oh, and for SnD, is it that hard to give us atleast an option of what finisher to use? Right now, unless you're SF specced, there is no point of using evis unless you have a shitload of crit. SS's with epics can do more damage then a non-crit evis. Amazing when a combo point builder than outdamage a combat point finisher?

but I doubt people are going to sink 5 talents for a TEN PERCENT CHANCE of resisting dispell. Oh shit, you have to dispell once more every 10 poison proccings.


Two things you retard, did you even bother to read what I posted. EVIS WILL SCALE. Second, It's a forty percent chance, not 10.
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Postby Whatcha » Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:39 pm

Serra wrote:This is different from the Arcane/Demonology/Survival trees how? If you think Rogues need love in PvP you need to stop Ambushing the Wrath FC in WSG and start Cheap Shotting the Priest keeping him up.

Arcane pre 1.11 was almost mandatory, post 1.11 not so much.
13 in sub is mandatory if you're going daggers, post 1.12? 5 now, maybe 10 if you want to pvp.
Yeah, because capture the flag is really pvp =/
How bout AB when the second I CS the priest, a mage/rogue/warrior instatargets me because they KNOW I go down faster than any other class in the game? I know I go for rogues the second they unstealth. Why? Because they die much much faster than any other class in the game (save maybe full holy priests, lol lightwell.)

I'm not going to argue that the way you spec is wrong, but I think I'm right and I disagree with you so...

Lawl, have fun being 30/0/21 and doing subpar dps in raids while being able to STuNLOCKLOLOLOL every 10 minutes. I'm actually 31/8/12, probably the best all around dagger build. Please find any fault in speccing 3x/8/1x (probably won't change unless I want imp sprint) over 2X/8/2X.

Haven't touched your DPS? A decked combat rogue can't even be TOUCHED in single-target DPS - and Blade Fury makes double-target every 2 minutes (omg not 120 seconds!) retarded. And if by dependant on CDs you mean Sprint for when you fuck up with Stealth, Vanish for when a mage does what mages do, and Evasion for when Shaman try to melee a rogue and get stomped than yeah, you suck without them.

You're ignorance is showing. Mages and warriors scale much faster than rogues (+spell damage and warriors get better itemization + rage) and with AQ40 gear, good fury warriors can outdps rogues on non-agro sensative fights in the nature of rage generation alone.
Here, I'll break it down for you,
A good geared warrior is only limited by cooldowns (in non-agro sensative fights) while a rogue is limited by energy. Warriors can even resort to slam spamming (it gives them 1.5 attack speed + a bit more damage) for rage dumps while rogues are still waiting 6 seconds to backstab or 4 seconds to SS. The nature of rage v energy alone shows that warriors will and can outdamage rogues in single target dps. Mages are iffy, I don't think I have the math on when +spell damage will outdo +AP and +crit for dagger/sword rogues.

Fuck options. My mage pushed the same two buttons for hours at a time. Now you don't care that Evis doesn't suck, which was your original complaint, now it's that SND is too good in comparison (which it is) and that Evis should be buffed to the point where you get to push the other button once in a while. It's not SS that does the damage in high-end raiding, it's the white damage, it's the part that scales with your gear faster because SS doesn't scale with gear as effectively as white damage. Therefore reducing your dependancy on energy is the name of the game.

And I'll press 3 buttons when evis gets fixed? BS/SnD/Evis. And evis will still suck balls in raiding, but a boost in evis damage for SF will be a boost in PvE and PvP damage for me, and a lot of other rogues, thus me wanting a good scaling evis. And nothing will ever change 5 SnD/5 evis/3 SnD rotation for combat dagger rogues, not even an impressive boost in evis damage. So why not give us an option to dump combo points much like warriors can dump rage?
And SnD isn't too good in comparison, its probably the only reason we are outdamaging mages at this point.
And white damage only scales so well until you hit the +weapon gap, but this has been fixed with WE, so thats fine.

So don't get the talent if you don't like it. I'm not talking 1v1 dueling, you're right, it'd be stupid. I'm talking organized PvP where a crippling poison rank 2 on a FC wrecks an entire extraction run.

lawl, so it's totally worth 5 talent points for one BG. One shitty talent that is easily outdone by hamstring (on demand and can't be dispelled) or earthbinding. And the sad fact is that rogues ARE balanced for 1v1 combat.

Rogues get Feint and Vanish and a never-ending passive threat reducer. Mages get... Ice Block. Warlocks get... MD? Fury Warriors get... die? If you're the kind of person who blames all your threat failures on the tank, you're the kind of person who would probably whine endlessly about a class you don't play anymore for reasons that are cyclical and short-sighted. Oh wait.

Mages get never-ending passive with talents, warriors in battle and zerker have the same exact passive as rogues, warlocks got boned. And usually, if a rogue is pulling agro (and has vanished), the tank is sucking penis.

And it has a substantial cooldown, no shit it's better.

No, feint is completely useless. Vanish 70% or so of a bosses health and you won't ever pull agro. Feint is terrible. And cooldown doesn't matter on vanish because most bosses give you plently of time for the cooldown to come up before the next boss.

Fury Warriors will be more attractive from a brute force PoV until Rage generation is nerfed or Energy is buffed, it's a game mechanic you can't get around. You're right, mages post 1.11 are pretty much the best PvE DPS in threat-sensitive fights. It's too bad they have to sacrifice damage for enough health to survive a error and enough mana to last that fight. Poor rogues, only having to focus on hit, crit and attack power. Especially with how little resistance matters in Naxx.

Why in the fuck is a mage taking damage other than enviornmental/random attacks/stupid part of the encounter? Rogues have to focus on stam/agi too douchebag, or did you miss the memo about AoE cleaves?
btw, can't dodge when you're stunned, and according to rogues on the forums, naxx is filled with AoE warstomp. Goody!
And why in the hell do you think we're whining about energy now? MAYBE BECAUSE IT'S OUR REVIEW AND THIS IS THE TIME TO LOOK INTO THESE THINGS?
I mean, its totally worthwhile to whine AFTER the patch indented to look into your class. Really big chance of changing things then.

And what the fuck do you think Mages and Warlocks rolled their class for? Water and healthstones? Your expectations are stupid.

They might have rolled for damage, but they got ulitily with their damage. Rogues got um... damage?

Mage rep said Mages would NEVER see a buff to how much water is produced because the devs were satisfied with 4/cast. But then again, CMs aren't Devs, and what they speak rarely means shit. I guess if you did your research you'd find that this is, in fact, the LAST review and everything that's happened to Rogues has happened already, and nobody cares anymore.

Hmm, CM's are supposed to be the "gateway" to the devs, so excuse me if the CM LIES while doing his job. And your change was for the positive (giving more water per cast), why in the fuck are you bitching that a CM was mistaken that you'll get less water. Drysc said TWICE that EA would stack with sunder, giving rogues more raid utlitiy, and without dev's there to confirm his statement, we have to go with him.
btw, this is the same CM that said warriors can pop enrage. Sup.

and grav, I just saw that evis scaling, and 40% is still shit compared to hamstring.
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Postby pix » Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:44 pm

WHATCHA HOLY FUCKING SHIT WHY ARE YOU SO GODDAMN RETARDED?
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Postby Mengde » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:07 pm

That's like asking why the sky is blue. Somebody COULD tell you, but you really don't want to know anyway.
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Postby Serra » Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:10 pm

Fine, you know what, Rogues suck. They do terrible damage, die quickly, serve no use in PvP, solo or organized, or raids. Warriors, Warlocks, Mages and Shadow Priests all do more damage with less effort and more reward. All of the new talents suck, and all of the old ones do too. This review sucked.

Crippling Poison is worse than Hamstring - because even though it's 15% more reduction in speed, and two classes can dispel it on either side, it's not on demand (30% on two daggers is TRASH OH MY GOD). Thank God Warriors can ranged attack - otherwise Hamstring might need to be effective.

Evis should totally scale at 840% of Attack Power - I got the gear, now I should do the damage. Mages should give me bread, Locks should give me Healthstones, Warriors should tank for me and I should be doing 70% of the DPS on every encounter because my class description said I do lots. I should snare the best, mitigate damage the best (because improved parry with lightning reflexes and a base 20 dodge while relying on agil which conveniently improves my dodge *with* my attack power sucks for avoiding damage, sheesh, I mean I only have 25 DR). My burst damage should be unmatched, but so should my long-term damage. I should be able to tear clothies with Ambush and Plate with Expose Armor (and then Ambush)! Because I'm a rogue! Good thing I specced 31/8/12, the worst spec for raiding I have access to, because even though I'm an idiot and got improved kidney shot and combat/hemo rogues obliterate me on the damage meter, I can stunlock in the BGs that I wouldn't dare spend talent points for... (that would be so stupid). That 120 energy sure isn't made for solo PvP, nope, it's awesome on five minute fights, where I consistently top off my energy (makes me feel good). That's why I spec like an idiot and think the whole rogue class sucks.

Now that's all out of the way, this patch lied to me, and I'm so upset I'm going to abandon all logic, and type blocks of irrational shit until everyone sees it my way. Forget perspective, I know it all, so don't even bother trying to explain simple game mechanics like rage, or mana to me. The only thing that matters is what that piece of paper that said "Rogue" at the top in my manual remains fulfilled. Be sure to reply in detail to all of my points, but don't try too hard, I won't read it anyways. I don't know how! Hahaha!
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Postby Whatcha » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:00 pm

Crippling Poison is worse than Hamstring - because even though it's 15% more reduction in speed, and two classes can dispel it on either side, it's not on demand (30% on two daggers is TRASH OH MY GOD). Thank God Warriors can ranged attack - otherwise Hamstring might need to be effective.

On demand > proc. Any way you look at it, hamstring is better than crippling simply because it isn't relant on swings but on a move that you can use and control. And warriors can "ranged" attack every 30 seconds, ty intercept.

Evis should totally scale at 840% of Attack Power - I got the gear, now I should do the damage. Mages should give me bread, Locks should give me Healthstones, Warriors should tank for me and I should be doing 70% of the DPS on every encounter because my class description said I do lots. I should snare the best, mitigate damage the best (because improved parry with lightning reflexes and a base 20 dodge while relying on agil which conveniently improves my dodge *with* my attack power sucks for avoiding damage, sheesh, I mean I only have 25 DR).

Lawl. So yeah, it's really fair that a mage brings (I'll be conservative here) 70% of my dps (they can AoE too!) in addition to the intel buff/decursing while doing this in ranged while a rogue has to eat cleaves, AoEs, etc with less armor equal to a mage and life almost equal to a mage. Lets not talk about fury warriors that have about twice the amount of armor and 1.5 times the HP, providing a group AP buff, and being able to offtank when he replaces armor. At some point, the minimal damage boost isn't worth bringing along a different class.

My burst damage should be unmatched, but so should my long-term damage. I should be able to tear clothies with Ambush and Plate with Expose Armor (and then Ambush)! Because I'm a rogue! Good thing I specced 31/8/12, the worst spec for raiding I have access to, because even though I'm an idiot and got improved kidney shot and combat/hemo rogues obliterate me on the damage meter, I can stunlock in the BGs that I wouldn't dare spend talent points for... (that would be so stupid). That 120 energy sure isn't made for solo PvP, nope, it's awesome on five minute fights, where I consistently top off my energy (makes me feel good). That's why I spec like an idiot and think the whole rogue class sucks.

Rofl, you just called 3x/8/1x the worst raiding spec for dagger rogues? Sup on prep.
Btw, I was complaining on behalf of the combat dagger rogues, I would never spec combat dagger because that gives up any chance of you being able to pvp for shit. I thought it was kind of obvious I was talking about the best raiding spec for any class, but I mean, 21/8/22 is such an awesome raiding build amirite?
It's actually the best all around pvp/raiding spec for daggers, and if you actually knew anything about the rogue class, you would know =/
Btw, imp kidney shot pre-1.12 was a great 1v1 and group pvp talent, but I'm sure the UBAR 10% DAMAGE WHILE STUNNED!!2!1!1 will really replace the 5 seconds off the cooldown, ie so I can do my job in group pvp and keep people under control.
And yes, in a PvE outlook, rogues and mages should be the best dps period. Warlocks and hunters being tied for third/fourth.
And rofl, a mage can do more burst damage than me in with a nice crit frostbolt than I could ever do to someone else in an ambush.

Now that's all out of the way, this patch lied to me, and I'm so upset I'm going to abandon all logic, and type blocks of irrational shit until everyone sees it my way. Forget perspective, I know it all, so don't even bother trying to explain simple game mechanics like rage, or mana to me. The only thing that matters is what that piece of paper that said "Rogue" at the top in my manual remains fulfilled. Be sure to reply in detail to all of my points, but don't try too hard, I won't read it anyways. I don't know how! Hahaha!

I really like this one, I mean, you didn't really disprove the fact that mages/warriors scale much better than rogues, and now you resort to insult me instead of trying to put your money where your mouth is and disprove my claim.

Rogues are probably the worst scaling class in the game, even with the new evis changes. +100 damage on an evis with 1500 AP. I'll take it over no scaling at all, but it's still pure shit.
here are some good links for you, if you even care to understand the class you are accusing of "wanting too much"

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... ost1341262

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... ost1295852

Anyone who reads that last link should understand the issues of the rogue class, though a lot of it is null since combat dagger is fine now.
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Postby Serra » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:26 pm

That last link, much like this thread, is merely an elaborate collection of wants.

On demand > proc. Any way you look at it, hamstring is better than crippling simply because it isn't relant on swings but on a move that you can use and control. And warriors can "ranged" attack every 30 seconds, ty intercept.

Hamstring costs rage. Crippling Poison costs money, and time in the form of weapon swings. On fast weapons, or with good luck, this is negligible. Of the many strengths of the Rogue class, I deem Crippling as one of the best. Ragging on Intercept is unfair - Warriors cannot stroll into melee against an alert opponent who doesn't want them to be - like Rogues can. Without Intercept, Warriors wouldn't have a fighting chance against Hunters and Mages.

So yeah, it's really fair that a mage brings (I'll be conservative here) 70% of my dps (they can AoE too!) in addition to the intel buff/decursing while doing this in ranged while a rogue has to eat cleaves, AoEs, etc with less armor equal to a mage and life almost equal to a mage.

I don't consider the fine art of buffing a privilege. Reagant costs, water production, drinking time, all facets of raiding as a mage.

Eating Cleaves and AoEs, etc, was the #1 complaint on the rogue boards back when Molten Core and Onyxia were revealed, and as a rogue at the time, it scared me that perhaps I would be unnecessary in late-game raids because I'd be more trouble than I was worth. When I actually got into Molten Core, and found that what they were talking about were things like Tail Whip, Mag's AoE fear, Geddon/Shazz's attacks and the knockback on Rag I thought it was a bunch of bullshit. The whining was bullshit. The only people who work when Rogues get cleaved are the healers in their group. It's hard work for you, I know. But to say that Rogues have equivalent armor with Mages (with Mage Armor on, I sit at just about 9.5 DR) and similar health (a mage with PvE gear in T2 gear will sit at around 3.1k, a rogue at 4.2k) is ignorant. Warriors cannot switch from DPS to OT without some serious sacrifice on the part of the healer - there's a big difference between specs, especially in the way of aggro control.

At some point, the minimal damage boost isn't worth bringing along a different class.

And yet, for some reason, Rogues still raid. Either raid leaders are all stupid, and so are the rogues who attend - or you have no idea what you're talking about.

Rofl, you just called 3x/8/1x the worst raiding spec for dagger rogues? Sup on prep.

I consider 3x/8/1x and 21/8/22 effectively identical for raiding. Seal Fate is the only thing you attain when you swap between the two for raiding, and frankly, because Evis sucks, the difference in DPS isn't noteworthy (in my opinion, I don't want to see a whole paragraph replying to that one line - my Rogue was and is still specced 30/8/13, and I don't think it's that big a deal).

Btw, I was complaining on behalf of the combat dagger rogues

They thank you for your diligent concern.

It's actually the best all around pvp/raiding spec for daggers, and if you actually knew anything about the rogue class, you would know =/

Shame that you don't enjoy Combat Daggers in PvP - should try it sometime. Too bad you think your opinion dictates fact. (insert face)

Btw, imp kidney shot pre-1.12 was a great 1v1 and group pvp talent, but I'm sure the UBAR 10% DAMAGE WHILE STUNNED!!2!1!1 will really replace the 5 seconds off the cooldown, ie so I can do my job in group pvp and keep people under control.

Not sure why you think you need to defend Imp. Kidney Shot. I only brought it up because you said speccing for BGs was a bad idea, despite doing it.

I really like this one, I mean, you didn't really disprove the fact that mages/warriors scale much better than rogues, and now you resort to insult me instead of trying to put your money where your mouth is and disprove my claim.

Oh, sorry, should I go acquire numbers for Frostbolts at T1, T2 and T3 and compare to Backstabs?

I already said Warriors > Rogues because rage > energy. As for Mages, much like you, I don't have the numbers and I'm not going to attempt to compare them. If you think the difference in scaling is so drastic, find numbers that shock me - I think the difference is negligible. Frostbolts get bigger as spell damage goes up - Backstabs get bigger as attack power goes up. If you want me to argue melee itemization vs. caster itemization, I'd like to refer you to ask on the Mage forum. There are dozens of furious casters that hate having their item stats distributed to spirit/mp5 and even some to stamina. At least every Rogue likes the same stats, even if they're in different amounts.

Rogues are probably the worst scaling class in the game, even with the new evis changes. +100 damage on an evis with 1500 AP. I'll take it over no scaling at all, but it's still pure shit.
here are some good links for you, if you even care to understand the class you are accusing of "wanting too much"

I had a conversation earlier today, following the announcement of the scaling but prior to the numbers being released and I mentioned that Evis would surely "scale like shit". Why? Because it's a powerful ability already. Really. Did you ever farm for a Shadowcraft Belt, and have to fight those Trolls with almost zero armor, and end up with a 2400 Evis crit? I did. And it wasn't a lot of work. And every time my Mage dies to some 3 point Evis crit because it pegs me for 1400 through my clothie ass, I'm supposed to tell you why it should scale better?


Either everyone on this entire thread is too fucking retarded to think for themselves, or they disagree with you for stated reasons and you insist that the way you see it is the only way to see it. Frankly, I don't care if you agree with me, you heard my opinions and my arguments and you've rejected them. All you've brought is the same shit I read time and time again as a rogue on those boards from retards like Ming demanding Shadow Priests have less DR, and that Flare have a longer cooldown - because they don't want a counter to their style of play. I left those boards because these conversations are a waste of time and all they do is serve to inject one with a feeling of loss over the shitty toon they rolled. Sometimes their points are fair, but usually it comes down to "l2p" and "suck it up". If you have any points you haven't brought up yet, do so and I'll try to respond realistically to them, otherwise, I'm done trying to stop your whining.
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Postby GraveI » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:42 pm

Whatcha wrote:And yes, in a PvE outlook, rogues and mages should be the best dps period. Warlocks and hunters being tied for third/fourth.


Says who?

And rofl, a mage can do more burst damage than me in with a nice crit frostbolt than I could ever do to someone else in an ambush.


When I get ambushed, it's generally followed up by an immediate backstab that does 60-70% of the damage ambush did, far greater then any frostbolt I've been hit with.
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Postby Shirushi » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:15 pm

I'm a Moonkin. I believe that ends this pitiful thread and should begin a new one bitching about Druid talents. Maybe if we cry enough they'll give us another review and scrap the rogue one for now.
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Postby ProblemLyric » Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:01 pm

Last edited by ProblemLyric on Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shirushi » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:33 am

only if you're a mage
Why so serious?
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Postby Janus » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:57 am

ProblemLyric wrote:i have 6k armor and im not a warrior or paladin do i win?


If you're a druid, I will laugh and keep on laughing.
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Re: Rogue changes

Postby ProblemLyric » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:28 am

http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 5553fc.jpg

and i dont have nearly my max potential for armor unbuffed
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Postby Shirushi » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:22 am

If only I had inner fire. Oh well, i'm closer to 10.5k armor in feral gearz.
Why so serious?
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Postby GraveI » Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:03 pm

# Due to significant talent changes, Warlocks will have all talent points refunded and can be respent.
# Cripple (Doomguard) - Targets that are immune to movement slowing effects will no longer be affected by Cripple's movement slowing effect. Melee and ranged attack speed slowing effects will still affect these targets.
# Demon Skin/Demon Armor - Now increases health regeneration at all times, as was always intended. Previously, the health regeneration only occurred out of combat. Tooltips updated.
# Demonic Sacrifice - The sacrifice effects for the Voidwalker and Felhunter have changed. The Voidwalker will now regenerate 3% of your total health every 4 seconds. The Felhunter will now regenerate 2% of your total mana every 4 seconds.
# Demonic Sacrifice now works properly on banished summons.
# Summon Dreadsteed - New icon.
# Dark Pact - Fixed a bug where the combat log was reporting an incorrect value of mana gained by the caster when there wasn't enough mana to drain from the pet.
# Phase Shift (Imp) - While phase shifted, the imp is now targetable but will remain an invalid target for all spells and attacks except self-cast spells.
# Improved Healthstone - The increased effect from this talent should now properly apply to other players that use the Warlock's Healthstones.
# Ritual of Summoning - Fixed a bug where players could be summoned from outside the same instance as the warlock in some cases.
# Unholy Power - No longer requires the Fel Stamina talent. Is now a tier 4 talent and is a prerequisite for the new Master Demonologist talent.
# Master Conjuror - Talent replaced with a new talent called Master Demonlogist.
# New Talent (Demonology): Master Demonologist - Grants both the Warlock and the summoned demon an effect as long as that demon is active. The effect granted depends on the type of demon summoned.
# Unholy Power - No longer requires the Fel Stamina talent. It now requires the Master Demonologist talent.
# Ritual of Doom - Should now display the cooldown.

<---- A Review?

14 total items. Of which, 8 were bug fixes, 1 was an icon change, leaving 5 potential improvements. Except 2 of those are the same, talking about how unholy power is now a prerequisite for Master Demonologist. For all those patch notes, the only actual changes were: Fel Sacrifice changed, Master Conjurer removed, Master Demonologist added, Unholy Power is a prerequisite of Master Demonologist.

Meanwhile the Affliction tree still has a huge amount of garbage talents such as Imp. Drain soul, Imp. CoA, Imp. Drain Mana. And the demonology tree has garbage like Imp. Enslave Demon and Imp. Spellstone. Then the Destro tree, has Imp. Firebolt and Imp. Lash of pain, why aren't these in the Demo tree?
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Postby OMGBSHAX » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:14 pm

Mengde wrote:That's like asking why the sky is blue. Somebody COULD tell you, but you really don't want to know anyway.


This sums it up pretty well when it comes to Whatcha's situation.
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