Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:07 am

No, the question relevant to this thread is:

Why are those soldiers, or the military at large, more to blame for this than you?
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby GraveI » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:30 am

http://blog.ajmartinez.com/2010/04/05/w ... al-murder/

What could have been the case is identified for the viewer quite readily. What certainly is true, in several key moments, is not. When presenting source media as the core of your argument, it is grossly irresponsible to fail to make known variables not shown within that media. If you are going to take the time to highlight certain things in said media, you should make certain all key elements are brought to the attention of your viewer.

WikiLeaks failed to do these things in this video, happily highlighting the positions and movements of the slain reporter and photographer while ignoring those of their company. It is also, until their arrival on scene, never clear where exactly the ground forces are in reference to Crazyhorse 18 and flight. I can make a pretty good guess, given my background. I would guess the same cannot be said by the vast majority of WikiLeaks’ target audience.

Between 3:13 and 3:30 it is quite clear to me, as both a former infantry sergeant and a photographer, that the two men central to the gun-camera’s frame are carrying photographic equipment. This much is noted by WikiLeaks, and misidentified by the crew of Crazyhorse 18. At 3:39, the men central to the frame are armed, the one on the far left with some AK variant, and the one in the center with an RPG. The RPG is crystal clear even in the downsized, very low-resolution, video between 3:40 and 3:45 when the man carrying it turns counter-clockwise and then back to the direction of the Apache. This all goes by without any mention whatsoever from WikiLeaks, and that is unacceptable.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:39 pm

TheRaven7 wrote:I wasn't there, I had no input, and I had no decisions to make.

How convenient for you. And neither me, nor your comrades on the fire field, nor even your own future offspring, would even want you to make those decisions, because you can't handle it.

You hear them talking smack in that video? Do you think that says anything about whether they did their jobs as professionally as they could? Do you know how you survive war? You don't survive it by coming home, you "survive" by living with gruesome shit in your head for the rest of your days, and every 5th soldier coming home rots inside out.

Some unfortunate are hard pressed to face hard decisions, because most others don't want to face their hard decisions, yet have already made them, silently and suppressed, living their lives that puts others there, pretending they've never been faced with a decision.

But hey, at least you weren't there, makes it even easier to play plaintiff for the dead, on whose funeral you bury your own part in this with them. The wrapping and packing garbage, after you went shopping.

TheRaven7 wrote:At what point is someone not partly to blame merely for existing? Even by doing everything possible to oppose something, you could make the argument that someone exacerbated the situation in doing so, or caused a different problem. And if one is apathetic, you could blame them for doing nothing.

The fixation on who is to blame for what is symptomatic for civilization's insecurities.

You are an ugly stinking misshapen that's to blame for everything the moment you are born. Altogether, everyone would be better off if you just died. Realizing, facing and accepting this is part of becoming a man.

It is true that it's the amount of immediate fault that matters for consequences to those involved. But everyone's own hidden part in that story of guilt should make you all the more cautious, precise and just; you are not justified for gleeful off-hand slander.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:49 pm

TheRaven7 wrote:At this moment, yes. I don't want to handle it. But neither of us can claim to know if I could handle if I was in a position to do so.

You can't because you don't want to. And why would you, why would anyone. Others don't have the luxury of putting this off for a time they might be able to. They don't have it, because you take it.

TheRaven7 wrote:I understand. This is why I didn't criticize the behavior of the troops, because context has to be taken into consideration.

Do I really have to remind you and others here of your own words?

TheRaven7 wrote:This is why we have a military. So we can live our lives while others give up theirs to defend it by doing our collective dirty work. I accept responsibility for that. What I take issue with is the statement that my lifestyle is directly responsible for putting our troops in Iraq. I did vote for Obama, so I am directly responsible for them (still and to a greater extent) being in Afghanistan (which I regret).

A modern state's citizens whole style of life defines the vested interests a government must have around the world. And where are interests, there are possible clashes of interests, some of them can't be diplomatically solved, yet must be solved, because people's lives and future demand it, and leaders are voted in to solve it. People don't even know what is to be solved, they just want shit solved. And for determining this, it is less relevant who you vote, it's what and how much you consume, in order to unconsciously clue in those you happen to vote in. To all international interventions and incidents, there is a direct trace to you and your needs, otherwise no one would bother to intervene. That's why wars are where they are, not elsewhere. You may not even be aware of your interests, and your interests are not specific to you, because you are not quite as individual as you think to be, you always belong to a greater group in the state with similar interests, great enough to warrant confrontations in your name, whether you understand this yet yourself or not.

TheRaven7 wrote:I'm not playing plaintiff for the dead, I'm playing indignant at the military command's initial unwillingness to be forthcoming about its mistakes.

They have been showing information early to some press, and after all that shit storm of false accusations, you wonder why they haven't been even more open and forthcoming to a greater public?

People can't handle it. Because people are boys, not men.

TheRaven7 wrote:Worrying about what it takes to "become a man" is symptomatic of patriarchal insecurities.

Not caring about becoming a real man is everything wrong about people, the same as not caring for the Real American Heroes is.

TheRaven7 wrote:A newborn cannot take blame for everything the moment they are born. This would be scapegoating. It is possible to argue that the moment a child makes its first decision, it is responsible for the outcomes of every decision thereafter. But it could not be responsible for events that came before it.

Are decisions for you only those that are made on rational thought in language, only conscious? Decisions are made as you do.

And, in a perverse irony, it is indebted to whose who gave it life, those who made this life possible on top the broken bodies of others.

You are born with blood on your hands, literary and figuratively.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:30 pm

You don't even understand the insults you are throwing. If anyone here is sanctimonious, it would be you and your supposed innocence, while baselessly blaming others to not do everything they can (c a n you really understand that?) to evade unreasonable casualties, trying to support your preposition with what turns out to be severely incomplete and biased reporting.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:43 pm

TheRaven7 wrote: for suggesting that the US military does anything short of going above and beyond to prevent this kind of scenario. The idea that "they shot them because the telescoping lens looked like an RPG" is far below "make sure you know it's an RPG before you shoot everyone in the area" in terms of going above and beyond.

That things did not turn out rosy, does not mean they did not everything they could in that situation. They had comrades under fire, that depend on them keeping their vulnerbale flanks free, as could be heard in the radio transmissions. Some overlooked insurgents could cost life of friends. And here are people running around with Ak's and RPGs or with what could be mistaken for it, inmidst a warzone, or in the vulnerable back of a line, without further markings about their identity. What do you think they would have felt if they were made responsible for the deaths of their buddies, if they missed to shoot those and they turned out real threats. And who knows for how long they were in missions and what happened the last couple days.

But by all means keep blaming newborn babies for ~10,000 years of human history Sins-Of-The-Father-style. I'm the sanctimonious one, apparently.

The stark difference between us is that I do not blame others to declare myself innocent. I man up to share into the guilt.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:05 pm

And have I single-handedly accused you for this specific incident? You don't even understand or remember the things you once quoted of me and replied to, or even your own posts, like you suffered some form of dementia. And you haven't even understood in what ways other than blood debt a newborn looses it's innocence simply by deciding to keep living. You seem to not grasp how much material and service is used to pamper up babies, and how these things are produced and maintained. You don't understand the cycle of things and your integral place in it, because you really don't care, all you care is creating half-assed opposition to what i say. Rather than acknowledging simple circumstances and relationships of your existence, you spout meaningless bullshit about masculinity and guilt trips that are neither here nor there, and whose references are obviously lost on you like any effort here at large.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby WatermelonMan » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:46 pm

I've come to understand that their decision to engage was probably the best decision possible especially considering this gem unearthed from the 2007 military's investigation (Can be downloaded her if anyone's interested).

Also, something to keep in mind, the Apache was given the order to engage before Namir sighted his camera, or aimed his RPG. Which is odd because those soldiers had to have known that almost every household in Iraq owns an AK variant, because, unfortunately, the US Army can't always be around to protect them and their police force is pretty weak. It's not uncommon to see communities form their own small militias to protect the neighborhood, and not necessarily from US troops. Yes, I know there were reports of small arms fire on the convoy, and here we have a group of individuals with small arms not far from the convoy, but the group that they engaged was in the opposite direction of the report of small arms fire. Though it is hard to say that Crazyhorse 18's reasons to engage were unfounded, I'd just like there to be a bit more caution before such an engagement, though I know that is probably unrealistic given the circumstance.

The van thing still bothers me though. Simply because they were given the clearance to fire doesn't necessarily mean they should have fired. A guy I know who used be in the military had a friend in the special ops and he and his team were doing some operation, I don't recall where, but they encountered a little girl who was an obvious look out for the guys they were hunting. She immediately began signaling to the enemy once she saw them, and even though they were in their right to shoot and kill her in order to salvage the operation, the team decided to scrap the mission and head back.

It seems like the better decision, considering the video we saw their commanders also saw a live stream of during the event, would be to say be on the look out for this van or simply follow it with a UAV or the Apache until the convoy was out of harms way (especially considering the van was heading away from the convoy).

But on an unrelated note, Wikileaks is claiming to have another video of the same Crazyhorse 18 launching a hellfire missile at a few guys that entered a building, completely leveling it. They didn't provide much context in their teaser so that's all I really know. It definitely seems Wikileaks is following the if-it-bleeds-it-leads motto. I can only imagine how much better this situation would be if cryptome got a hold of the video first = /

EDIT: that hellfire missile scene is in the 40 minute video so I don't know wtf their twitter was talking about, I also can't find the twitter of them saying it so...I...don't know, I apologize.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:43 pm

TheRaven7 wrote:You are not a god.

And you are not a worthwhile debater.

I speak of resources and roles, you of time, I speak of decisions on living, you of birth, I speak of responsibility and shared guilt, you deride the discussion more and more with your fixation and worries about blame, like any child would.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:56 pm

TheRaven7 wrote:You don't get it.

What kind of fucked irony is that?
TheRaven7 wrote:Shared guilt doesn't apply retroactively. You're defying causality.

It does as long as you keep profiting of it without compensations.
But with every breath you do, you don't compensate, you share even more into it.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:03 pm

TheRaven7 wrote:Again, you have no call in what my role in society is.

I don't make this call. And the extension to which you make it is a delusion.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:20 pm

TheRaven7 wrote:Again, holding everyone guilty for everything for merely existing is pointless. All you've established is that everyone is guilty for contributing to society.

The point is to watch your tongue next time you throw around blame. Your shared guilt obligates you to double check your facts before talking. And it should curb the pleasure you take in searching for the mistakes of others in such matters.

TheRaven7 wrote:This does nothing to solve problems.

Of which you make more than there should be.

TheRaven7 wrote:The entire point of blaming people is to remove an initiator to a problem.
The entire point of blaming is opening your mouth to prove you can talk.

TheRaven7 wrote:If someone goes on a murderous rampage, you can blame the parents, teachers, peers, the school system, the current generation, the previous generation, the socioeconomic situation, and anything else for contributing to the act, but it isn't going to stop the murderer. Neither will dealing with all of the guilty, because the problem has already been created.

You mix everything up. Ascertaining crimes is not about throwing around blames--or should not be to modern standards of judgment--it's about carrying forth the chain of consequences in a manner necessary.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:31 pm

TheRaven7 wrote:No, the idea that you have some enlightened understanding of the machinations of humanity that negates the unaccountable variable of free will is a delusion.
Your idea of free will and how it may save you from guilt, is a delusion.

TheRaven7 wrote:You cannot diagram with certainty how people will fill roles or make decisions with a flowchart

Ever heard of sociology and psychology. Most of your life is simple and stupid, and you are not even aware of most of what happens with you. Much of you can be reliably foreseen. Hello marketing.

Being smart is not about being ever unpredictable, it is more about understanding predictabilities.

About those parts that cannot be understood and foreseen, we did not talk here. You live within bounds, and those bounds can be talked about. That you are a sinner and pig by heart, principle effects of your existence on those of others, is nothing you can run from, is nothing that has to do with you personally.

It's a law of nature.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby Jester » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:35 pm

If its gonna be that kind of party im gonna go stick my dick in the mashed potatoes.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby Turkey_Slayer » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:54 pm

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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:00 pm

That's because if you have any sense at all, you want to punch that wikifool's face the moment he opens his mouth. New Journalism? Old Journalism? That's No Journalism, asshole, it's the end of it. It's not even about the argumentative side he's on, those idiots don't provoke thought with a provocative thought, they end all thought with a braindead lie.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:23 pm

There was only one journalist at the table, and that was the comedian, that's the real comedy.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:33 pm

Colbert pwnage at best, talk about investigative and revealing journalism.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:59 am

RageAgainstVoid wrote:There was only one journalist at the table, and that was the comedian, that's the real comedy.


And this is why Colbert is just too awesome for words.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby Ryzel » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:03 pm

So is there a reason all of Raven's posts got deleted?
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby Cassiel » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:43 pm

Yes. They were rubbish.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby Ryzel » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 pm

Why? If it's because the posts were off-topic, shouldn't RAV's posts be deleted along with Raven's? (love you RAV, but I'm trying to make a point) (heh, first three letters of both names are the same, didn't notice before) If it's because the posts were "incorrect" opinions or those based off of false assumptions, there's still a couple of those in this thread. What makes a post rubbish, if not one or both of the two aforementioned properties?

I realize an internet forum isn't exactly a democracy, but deleting someone's entire side of an argument, containing opinions that seemed to have some semblance of thought and effort, for a reason that doesn't apply to everyone else, is something for which I would want to express my disapproval.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby Mengde » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:19 pm

Boy you better take that liberal hippie bullshit outside before we whup ya.

Also, we should hang out.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby Ryzel » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:50 am

Indeed. SC2 with me.
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Re: Not newsworthy enough for Fox or CNN?

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:31 am

Ryzel wrote:Why? If it's because the posts were off-topic, shouldn't RAV's posts be deleted along with Raven's? (love you RAV, but I'm trying to make a point) (heh, first three letters of both names are the same, didn't notice before) If it's because the posts were "incorrect" opinions or those based off of false assumptions, there's still a couple of those in this thread. What makes a post rubbish, if not one or both of the two aforementioned properties?

I realize an internet forum isn't exactly a democracy, but deleting someone's entire side of an argument, containing opinions that seemed to have some semblance of thought and effort, for a reason that doesn't apply to everyone else, is something for which I would want to express my disapproval.


RAV's posts contain actual thoughts, Raven's contain poorly cobbled rhetoric he hasn't thought through. Cass doesn't just delete posts will-he-nill-he (he-he) otherwise I would never have made it on this forum.

Besides, it's Raven, and that's just soooo Cassiel.
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