Israel

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Re: Israel

Postby Jester » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:01 pm

All i can say is, if Hamas wanted peace they wouldnt have broken the cease fire. So argueing that the Israels could find a more peacefull solution is moot when it was Hamas that broke it first. How do you persue peace when your enemy violates the treaties?


And of course they went for the power grid first, youll also notice that they leveled all the government buildings. Thats how you fight a war, you attack the infrastructure. It weakens the opponents ability to respond in a normal manner. If you truely understood how horrible cramped gaza is then the civilian casualities were unfortunate, but inevitable.

Also from what ive seen of the photos from the area the Israels focused mainly on the infrastructure, it wasnt random carpet bombing. But hell, we can argue forever, because we like that conflict wont resolve this with words.
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:03 pm

Half + Seven wrote:
Kaz wrote:What should be used instead are more reasonable, measured usages of force and a lot more diplomacy. Of course they won't do it because, in the tiny reptilian brains of conservatives, that would be "weakness".
That's your solution? Even you must see your own double standard. You expect the Israelis to act like god damn saints. The Palestinians can't do something as simple as honoring a ceasefire. Some how you deem that worthy of more diplomacy.

The attacks on Palestine allow "vermin like hamas" to take root, who in turn attack Israel, who in turn become more hostile and attack Palestine. Which came first the chicken or the egg?


Apparently you don't read posts other than those directly arguing with you. So how about this, the chicken came first in the form of, depending on your point of view, a bunch of dudes doing mushrooms and founding a religion, or God speaking to Abraham. Either way, Jews started it, then Jews got enslaved and oppressed for most of their existence (even ignoring the biblical record). Then came Christians, followed by Muslims, and well it gets a bit complicated, but basically Muslims have some time in the son before Christians pwn almost everyone in the world. Then the Jews pwned some Christians who felt guilty about what other Christians/white people (the chicken/egg analogy fell apart days ago but let's just keep going since I'm on a stoned roll) had just done to the Jews (see: World War II). So the Jews got some land that the Christians had pwned from the Muslims, who got Jewed out of their homeland (hate is LOL). Then the Jews pwned the Muslims and kept pwning the Muslims and the Muslims pwned the Muslims and the Christians were like "we're done pwning" but really they just stopped pwning in person and started paying for it.

And some other stuff happened. Basically, the chicken came first, and you're ignorant.


Jester, Hamas doesn't want peace. The PA and the majority of the Palestinian people want peace. But as I said, they literally have no bargaining chips. The Arab world doesn't care about them unless it's an excuse to hate on Israel, and the Israelis hate them because they've been ingrained as the most immediate and literal threat to their existence. They have no money, no political influence, nothing, except violence and the threat of violence. It's an impossible situation made more impossible by hundreds, if not thousands of years of history, traumatized culture and a literal lack of ARABLE land omg I funnied again. Gotta stop now.
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Re: Israel

Postby Kaz » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:47 pm

Yes jester, just like when a bully corners a nerd to make him throw the first punch and thereby justify the pounding he planned to dish out in the first place as defensive retaliation. It's only not completely absurd when the strengths are roughly equivalent.

Israel is in the position of power. They are vastly richer and more powerful and have strong support. It's up to them to give the olive branch and show some indulgence. That is if they are interested in peace and coexistence with their neighbors of course. This is a big if.

Hamas will fall into irrelevance once palestinians have no longer anything to fear from israel.
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:10 pm

No it won't, because the problems facing the Palestinians are far more complex than just a fear of Israel. Also, this is a "bully" that informs its victims of where they'll be punched. Hamas doesn't exactly extend Israel the same courtesy, does it? And what about the Hamas leader who not only refused to evacuate his house when the Israelis said they'd bomb it, but kept his family of four wives and like 11 children in the house with him? Who the fuck uses their family as a god damn body shield?

There's a lot more going on here than just fear. It's not a normal human action to sacrifice your family.

Israel is only in a position of power in relation to the Palestinians. There are over a billion muslims in the world, not to mention the fact that China and Russia back most of the Arab world. That's like half the world's population right there. Hell, the US, arguably half of the reason Israel still exists and the country's only supporter (not that they need more) still supports Israel-hating portions of the Arab world. The onus is no longer on either side simply because they are incapable of extending an olive branch as they are. The world around them has to desire peace in the region as much as the two nations. There are too many international interests on either side of the conflict for the matter to be resolved by Israel and Palestine.
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Re: Israel

Postby Kaz » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

He was making a stand. He probably thought Israel wouldn't carry out the bombing since this is what the good guys do. They don't blow the shit out of something they know contains innocent civilians unless it's absolutely necessary. Was the dude's house about to launch a missile? Was it instrumental to an imminent attack that would cause even more deaths? Not it wasn't. It was more intimidation, more cock banging by Israel. They were going to bomb it just because they could. Seriously you'd be calling it bloody murder if it was any other state doing it.

Let's bring a little empathy here because it's really easy to argue from the comfort of a living room. What the fuck would you do in their stead? Keep getting pushed back by the giant until there's nothing left of you? This is genocide. It's not as direct as rounding them up and gassing them but they'll be just as dead eventually.

Can you not see a huge part of why Israel incites so much hatred is how it consistently acts like a belligerent outpost of western imperialism under the guise of "helping those poor Jews"? I'm not saying if it stopped doing that shit world peace would be immediately attained. It could only help, however.
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Re: Israel

Postby Half + Seven » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:55 am

Basically, the chicken came first, and you're ignorant.
Good work solving a 2000 year old conflict in a paragraph. Now that you have indeed identified a winner, doesn't matter who, we can all stop fighting. You've cast blame on one side for ultimately starting the conflict and yet it doesn't seem to matter. Looks like some people disagree with you. The point wasn't to have you tell me some tween girls version of middle eastern history, it was to show a self sustaining cycle that doesn't have an agreed upon beginning.
Can you not see a huge part of why Israel incites so much hatred is how it consistently acts like a belligerent outpost of western imperialism under the guise of "helping those poor Jews"?
I can. We all can. No one thus far has said Israel is in the right here. It's you who can't see the converse. To use your own words: Can you not see a huge part of why Palestine incites so much hatred is how it consistently acts like a belligerent outpost of Jihad under the guise of "getting back our rightful homeland"? I can see both sides, you apparently can not.

You tell Israelis to stop electing "neo-cons" as you call them, while not telling the Palestinians to stop electing Hamas, who by that definition could be considered "neo-cons" as well. You say Israel must be the first to show peace, but it was Palestine that broke the ceasefire. You say Hamas will fade when they have nothing to fear from Israel, but can't seem to see that the "neo-cons" will fade if they have nothing to fear from Palestine. You question the Israeli people's genuine interest in coexisting with there neighbors, but don't acknowledge that many Palestinians may not have a genuine desire either. You allow fear to justify Palestinian action, but not Israeli action. Etc. I have no more to offer if you insist on keeping up this double standard defense.
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Re: Israel

Postby Gorbadoc » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:20 am

Israel is in a position to compromise if they so choose. Palestine is not.
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:38 am

Half + Seven wrote:
Basically, the chicken came first, and you're ignorant.
Good work solving a 2000 year old conflict in a paragraph. Now that you have indeed identified a winner, doesn't matter who, we can all stop fighting. You've cast blame on one side for ultimately starting the conflict and yet it doesn't seem to matter. Looks like some people disagree with you. The point wasn't to have you tell me some tween girls version of middle eastern history, it was to show a self sustaining cycle that doesn't have an agreed upon beginning.


Hardly, you retard. The point actually clearly illustrates the numerous causes of the situation stretching back thousands of years, from the culture identity of the Jew as an outside to the Colonial Imperialism of Europe that dominated the world. The roots of this conflict stretch so deep it is impossible for both sides to resolve independently. THERE IS NO BLAME HERE, there is only history and what has happened, and even thinking of it in that context is self-defeating, which you claim to know, so that begs the question of why even phrase that question. The entire problem for these peoples revolves around blame, which brings no resolution or hope of resolution. So, to end with, yes, it DOES have an agreed upon beginning. You can move through the history of the region and pin-point key areas where damage is still in effect, and then you can understand the conflict on a level that does encourage resolution.

Kaz wrote:Let's bring a little empathy here because it's really easy to argue from the comfort of a living room. What the fuck would you do in their stead? Keep getting pushed back by the giant until there's nothing left of you? This is genocide. It's not as direct as rounding them up and gassing them but they'll be just as dead eventually.

Can you not see a huge part of why Israel incites so much hatred is how it consistently acts like a belligerent outpost of western imperialism under the guise of "helping those poor Jews"? I'm not saying if it stopped doing that shit world peace would be immediately attained. It could only help, however.


Right. Okay. Sure. I have empathy. No. I cannot have empathy for these people. I'm a fucking American, I've never gone hungry, my family is wealthy, I can't even truly conceive of what it must be like to grow up scared, uneducated and pushed out of my homeland. I do know that I've inherited the scars of my grandparents and great-grandparents generation. Maybe you don't understand this point, but the Holocaust, and you know well what that was, is STILL ALIVE in every single Jew across the world today. We are raised with the image of the death camps as hovering just over our shoulder, the final and absolute knowledge that the majority of the world will always want to kill us, and not just kill, but systemically eradicate us, because that Holocaust was not the first time something like that happened, just the most effective.

Can you not see how much a part that plays in this conflict? How there is no right or wrong in context of the situation, only in isolated actions that can never be isolated from their causes? Let's turn this around. If someone was launching rockets into your town, threatening your children, wouldn't you want your military to go deal with those people? Israel does not incite hatred because of how it acts, it incites it because it exists. If Israel had not acted in such a way throughout its history, all those Jews would be dead, regardless of the "rightness" of their possession of the land in the first place.

So I can have no empathy for those people, I can only have it for the Israelis. But I do have sympathy for the Palestinians. I can weep as they wepp, for their dead children and their dead hopes and dreams. But they have the onus on them, Hamas has the obligation to stop fighting. Israel only every retaliates. It's pretty much that simple. Hamas chooses violence, time and time again. I hope that someday the Palestinian people find relief, since not even their Arab brethren will help them beyond giving them weapons and offering money to their suicide bombers. I mean Jesus Fucking Christ, you talk about Israel's obligation to ending this conflict? What about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Egypt or Saudi Arabia's obligation? What about Iran who supplies them weapons, or Iraq, who used to supply them with money for martyrs and probably will more now that we've systemically raped their nation? You say Israel is a giant, have you looked at a map? At a population census? Israel is outnumbered by an insane margin. They're just not outgunned.

Kaz wrote:He was making a stand. He probably thought Israel wouldn't carry out the bombing since this is what the good guys do. They don't blow the shit out of something they know contains innocent civilians unless it's absolutely necessary. Was the dude's house about to launch a missile? Was it instrumental to an imminent attack that would cause even more deaths? Not it wasn't. It was more intimidation, more cock banging by Israel. They were going to bomb it just because they could. Seriously you'd be calling it bloody murder if it was any other state doing it.


No. He wants to make a stand, he can make a stand. But think about what the fuck you're saying for a minute. Who keeps their family with them? And yes, that man was a danger if only because he was a leader of Hamas. How effective is an organization when its top brass continuously get assassinated? And how much of the lack of money and infrastructure of the Palestinian people can be attributed to its leaders bankrupting them for either their own personal pleasure or to buy more weapons to threaten Israel. Iran doesn't just give them all away for free, you know.

And why should he expect Israel to not murder his family when all the Palestinian suicide bombers do is target family events, and dance clubs? Why do they get to target soft targets in crowded shopping places, when Israel doesn't get to? Because you're right, Israel can take a higher moral position here, if only in that they inform the Palestinians they will be struck DAYS in advance. Who conducts a war that way? In the history of the world, who has ever warned their enemy they will strike and where they will strike so as to MINIMIZE civilian casualties? Why can't Hamas extend the same courtesy? Israel could wipe all those people off the map in days, literally. They haven't. And lord knows its a courtesy their neighbors would not extend tot hem.

The taking of ground dismays me. This conflict, like all the others, will only end when both sides weary of blood, or the world steps in and says "enough." Only, then where to go from there? Most of the world population would just as soon see every Jew in Israel dead. The most powerful nation in the world likes Israel in control, enjoys its relationship with Israel and would like to see it stay alive. The US and the IDF are all that stand between Israel and literal imminent destruction. If Israel laid down its arms, you can bet your fucking ass there would be genocide.

Gorbadoc wrote:Israel is in a position to compromise if they so choose. Palestine is not.

Say more, this is the best thing to happen to the Stump since Bush the first time around.
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Re: Israel

Postby Myth » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:39 am

The Middle East has been a warzone since before the time of Christ (if that's what you believe). It will likely continue to be. I just don't know if there are actual solutions.

Also, this whole thing plays really interestingly into the Central Asian Engine Theory.

My opinion: Israel really crossed a line here. But hey, the worst thing you can do is step in between two fighting dogs. They'll figure it out.
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:47 am

A part of me thinks that Israel should just arm Fatah and let them go take care of Hamas. Because we all know how effective that strategy is in the long term =/
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Willy » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:59 am

Jester wrote:You are still thinking in terms of conventional warfare.

Err - no. Actually im not thinking in terms of warfare at all - and I'm a bit uncertain how you came to that conclusion.
I'm thinking in terms of anti-terror operations.

And no, just because they hide inside the population doesnt mean you have to wipe out the people to get them. Unless thats how the police in the US operates.

Dr.Mellifluous wrote:Let's turn this around. If someone was launching rockets into your town, threatening your children, wouldn't you want your military to go deal with those people? Israel does not incite hatred because of how it acts, it incites it because it exists. If Israel had not acted in such a way throughout its history, all those Jews would be dead, regardless of the "rightness" of their possession of the land in the first place.

That depends - do you just want some people dead or do you want to ... like ... try to solve the underlying problem?

Because in my opionion that is possible, despite of what you said.

If, on the other hand, you are right and there is no solution that results in a more or less peaceful co-existance, then Israels reaction could best be described as "half assed".
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:33 pm

Dr.Willy wrote:That depends - do you just want some people dead or do you want to ... like ... try to solve the underlying problem?

Because in my opionion that is possible, despite of what you said.

If, on the other hand, you are right and there is no solution that results in a more or less peaceful co-existance, then Israels reaction could best be described as "half assed".


You think it's possible for Israel and Palestine to resolve the conflict by themselves? No, it isn't. And I never said there was no solution, in fact, I believe I've laid out a criteria through my posting for what such a solution entails. International cooperation, a cessation of attempts to lay blame, foreign aid designed to bolster the Palestinian infrastructure that doesn't get used for terrorist or other nefarious purposes, and equal and equally intense pressure laid on both nations to stop fighting and just rebuild.

And now that I look at what you wrote, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. You seem to be responding to a point in my argument that's taken out of context.
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Re: Israel

Postby Jester » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 pm

Dr.Willy wrote:
Jester wrote:You are still thinking in terms of conventional warfare.

Err - no. Actually im not thinking in terms of warfare at all - and I'm a bit uncertain how you came to that conclusion.
I'm thinking in terms of anti-terror operations.

And no, just because they hide inside the population doesnt mean you have to wipe out the people to get them. Unless thats how the police in the US operates.


You do understand that its the same "war" thats been going for 40 years, its never officially came to an end. The palenstinians adopted terrorist tactics because they couldnt match the military might of the Israelis and sought to drag it out and just hope they would wear them down. I dont care if you dont think its a war, both sides involved do. If it wasnt a war, then a treaty wouldnt be possible. This isnt Al Queda, this is an elected body that is fighting another elected body.

Also, Israelis arent carpet bombing all of Gaza, please stop talking like they are. Its focused attacks. Gaza is incrediably dense in terms of population and to cite Mel earlier Hamas is putting cilivians in harms way. Israel announced they were going to attack the day before they did, hell it was on the fucking front page of Yahoo. Hamas had plenty of time to evacuate the government buildings but they didnt, they let them die.

What I dont understand is how you would solve the problem, you like to attack the way things are going down, but you have yet to offer any real solution other than bitching and moaning about the travesty of war. If you want to talk human rights lets discuss the hundreds of other issues going on in the world today, instead of the one place where the violations are being pushed through by one side to make a point.
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Willy » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:27 pm

Dr.Mellifluous wrote:You think it's possible for Israel and Palestine to resolve the conflict by themselves? No, it isn't.

Maybe you're right.

See, every now and then I come up with the idea that people in a miserable situation would become aware of their misery, sit down, think, come up with an idea to better their situation and then follow that idea.
However in reality - and thats the point where i've been too optimistic the entire time - people are stupid.
As said before, the problem isnt going to resolve itself. Palestine has got a infinite (at least for the near future) supply of angry young men and Israel has enough enemies to support these men.

International cooperation? Foreign aid to bolster the Palestinian infrastructure? Pressure laid on both nations?
Hold a second.
At this very moment I am sitting in my cosy appartment, enjoying a glass of orange juice and the view over the wintery Bonn. And I guess you're doing about the same.
A few hundred miles eastwards however, I'm sure there is a man crying over his father's/brother's/sister's death in an airstrike and a Mother praying that her children won't die in a vicious terrorist attack.
Ok, now that we've painted these images, who do you think should be working to better their situation?
Right, it's not going to be me.

I will however express my disdain about either side for pointlessly killing people because they are too stupid to come up with something better.

Dr.Mellifluous wrote:And now that I look at what you wrote, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. You seem to be responding to a point in my argument that's taken out of context.

I found that inbetween the paragraphs about why jews are all angsty and the one where you say that you have no empathy for the palestinians.
Other than that what i got could be summarised as "Its like that, israel cant cange it and their behaviour is all natural".
Is that about what you were saying?

Jester wrote:You do understand that its the same "war" thats been going for 40 years, its never officially came to an end. The palenstinians adopted terrorist tactics because they couldnt match the military might of the Israelis and sought to drag it out and just hope they would wear them down.

So in short, we may safely ignore reality, because there still sticks a label reading "war" on it.
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Re: Israel

Postby Kaz » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:33 pm

This topic is very draining so I'll just answer a few things. Yes ok the Hamas are bad to use civilians as shields directly or indirectly but that does not make it remotely acceptable for Israel to carry out their attacks in spite of that fact, especially when they're well aware of it, for the same reason a cop won't shoot through a hostage to kill a terrorist.

Dr.Mellifluous wrote:We are raised with the image of the death camps as hovering just over our shoulder, the final and absolute knowledge that the majority of the world will always want to kill us, and not just kill, but systemically eradicate us, because that Holocaust was not the first time something like that happened, just the most effective.


This is a mass delusion. You call yourselves the chosen people but you are nothing special. Just another ethnicity and religion among thousands others. It just so happens you were a minority wherever you went by virtue of the seclusive nature of your culture. The Holocaust, just like most other cleansings, also targeted other minorities: homosexuals, Roma, the sickly and the infirm, etc. I would even say that today Jews are all around one of the most tolerated minorities. Thierry Henry still has bananas thrown at him when he plays in certain European cities.

It's your responsibility to break the cycle of hatred just like I did. My mother loathes the British for things they did to "us" in the past. I don't.

So I can have no empathy for those people, I can only have it for the Israelis. But I do have sympathy for the Palestinians. I can weep as they wepp, for their dead children and their dead hopes and dreams. But they have the onus on them, Hamas has the obligation to stop fighting. Israel only every retaliates. It's pretty much that simple. Hamas chooses violence, time and time again.


This is amazingly short sighted. Is blocking aid not a form violence? Israel has been blockading the Gaza strips for nearly two years. Many Palestinians lost their lives due to lack of basic medical supplies and food shortages. And you're wondering why Hamas broke the cease fire?

Hell you could easily make the argument that it's because Hamas is fighting that Israel almost respects borders nowadays even though they more or less continue to ensure Palestinians remain mostly poor and powerless through other means.

Also read this: http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/#6
Is Hamas only a terrorist group?

No. In addition to its military wing, the so-called Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade, Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. It funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz. The Palestinian Authority often fails to provide such services; Hamas's efforts in this area—as well as a reputation for honesty, in contrast to the many Fatah officials accused of corruption—help to explain the broad popularity it summoned to defeat Fatah in the PA's recent elections.
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Re: Israel

Postby Half + Seven » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:00 am

Dr.Mellifluous wrote:So, to end with, yes, it DOES have an agreed upon beginning.
Except it doesn't. Maybe for you, but you can only speak for one side. The other side is full of people who deny the holocaust and blame pretty much everything on the Zionist regime. You think they would agree with your version of history? You'd be delusion to think such a thing.
Dr.Mellifluous wrote:begs the question
Begging the question is to support your argument with a variant of itself. You should say raises the question. I know it's got a more contemporary usage, but in a board devoted to arguing you should really use logic terms properly.
Dr.Mellifluous wrote:You think it's possible for Israel and Palestine to resolve the conflict by themselves? No, it isn't.
The saddest part is you actually believe this. Any action "the world" takes will be viewed by both sides as unfair to them, and just temporarily stop aggression. Sure world action could help in the short term, but only when they are able to solve it themselves will it be truly over.
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Re: Israel

Postby Kaz » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:09 am

BBC News presenter in response to an Israeli apologist claiming the rocket attacks constituted justification for this invasion:

"Britain endured decades of IRA bombings and didn't invade Ireland, because doing so would have been disproportionate and stupid."

My argument in a nutshell.
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:14 am

Kaz wrote:This is a mass delusion. You call yourselves the chosen people but you are nothing special. Just another ethnicity and religion among thousands others. It just so happens you were a minority wherever you went by virtue of the seclusive nature of your culture. The Holocaust, just like most other cleansings, also targeted other minorities: homosexuals, Roma, the sickly and the infirm, etc. I would even say that today Jews are all around one of the most tolerated minorities. Thierry Henry still has bananas thrown at him when he plays in certain European cities.

It's your responsibility to break the cycle of hatred just like I did. My mother loathes the British for things they did to "us" in the past. I don't.


You misunderstand completely. This isn't about hate. Think of it this way, the Jewish people is a person who has been raped, that person is completely fucking traumatized, and liable to overreact at the sight of sexualized violence. Does that make it more clear? I know that lots of other people were killed in the Holocaust, and that genocide is an old practice even if it's a new word. My point had nothing to do with that.

Kaz wrote:This is amazingly short sighted. Is blocking aid not a form violence? Israel has been blockading the Gaza strips for nearly two years. Many Palestinians lost their lives due to lack of basic medical supplies and food shortages. And you're wondering why Hamas broke the cease fire?

Hell you could easily make the argument that it's because Hamas is fighting that Israel almost respects borders nowadays even though they more or less continue to ensure Palestinians remain mostly poor and powerless through other means.

Also read this: http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/#6
Is Hamas only a terrorist group?

No. In addition to its military wing, the so-called Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade, Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. It funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz. The Palestinian Authority often fails to provide such services; Hamas's efforts in this area—as well as a reputation for honesty, in contrast to the many Fatah officials accused of corruption—help to explain the broad popularity it summoned to defeat Fatah in the PA's recent elections.


So why did all the infrastructure that Israel had set up for the Palestinians completely disintegrate after they withdrew? And why don't I believe this slightly outdated information? Because nowhere else in the Arab world does any other ruling organization actually care for its people in that manner. Hell, this current conflict is illuminating the differences between the rulers and the ruled as we speak.

And I know that Hamas is an NGO, that's part of what makes this problem so much more difficult. The EU and the US do not recognize Hamas as a governing body, it is classified as a terrorist organization, and one of Hamas's stated and most important goals is the complete eradication of Israel and refusal to recognize its status as a sovereign nation. So great, it's not ONLY a terrorist group, it's just a terrorist part of the time. Like I murder part-time on the weekends, but during the week I work at soup kitchens so I'm not a murderer there. So if Israel does acknowledge the border, it means that terrorism is effective and the attacks on Israel which have been constant since 2005 will be able to continue uninterrupted. Israel doesn't constantly attack, it responds, mostly hard targets and militants. Hamas does constantly attack and harass, specifically soft targets. If Hamas stops, Israel stops. Then it's all just a matter of negotiation.

I'll address Seven in the next post. Responding to him exhausts me. But keep on trying to change my mind, mein Kazenfurher, if my beliefs can't withhold scrutiny and argumentation they're not worth having.

EDIT
Kaz wrote:BBC News presenter in response to an Israeli apologist claiming the rocket attacks constituted justification for this invasion:

"Britain endured decades of IRA bombings and didn't invade Ireland, because doing so would have been disproportionate and stupid."

My argument in a nutshell.


Wow. Because those situations are EXACTLY PARALLEL. There may be some similarities, but the differences mount up so fast I can't even believe you brought this up.
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:27 am

Half + Seven wrote:
Dr.Mellifluous wrote:So, to end with, yes, it DOES have an agreed upon beginning.
Except it doesn't. Maybe for you, but you can only speak for one side. The other side is full of people who deny the holocaust and blame pretty much everything on the Zionist regime. You think they would agree with your version of history? You'd be delusion to think such a thing.

God you're retarded. The point about the Holocaust is in reference to the Jewish experience. The rest of it though is BIBLICAL and large parts of it no practicing Muslim would ever deny. This worst bit is that I think you agree with me on the basics of the larger question.

Half + Seven wrote:
Dr.Mellifluous wrote:begs the question
Begging the question is to support your argument with a variant of itself. You should say raises the question. I know it's got a more contemporary usage, but in a board devoted to arguing you should really use logic terms properly.


Noted. Nice evasion.

Half + Seven wrote:
Dr.Mellifluous wrote:You think it's possible for Israel and Palestine to resolve the conflict by themselves? No, it isn't.
The saddest part is you actually believe this. Any action "the world" takes will be viewed by both sides as unfair to them, and just temporarily stop aggression. Sure world action could help in the short term, but only when they are able to solve it themselves will it be truly over.


See the saddest part to me is you don't understand this. It will take the world to stop a conflict that the entire world has a vested interest in. The complex weave of international powers and support in the Middle East necessitates a global response. In much the same way that the US used to fund fascist regimes to prevent the spread of Communism, the Arab nations support the Palestinians. Only with weapons mind you, because god forbid they send aid (or monetary rewards for martyrdom). Which Israel does try to allow taking into the fact that supplying their enemy is detrimental to their objectives. I notice yet again that doesn't commonly occur during war, like being warned before missile strikes.

So yes, peace in the Middle East could happen between Palestine and Israel if the two sides sat down and hammered at the peace until they reached a compromise. But that doesn't end the conflict. Terrorist agents will still be alive and well, even if Palestine has a peace treaty with Israel, Hamas could still exist much as Hezbollah does. So long as the entire Arab world desires the destruction of Israel, peace will be impossible. And if you can't understand that, then I'm going to be so dismayed and so very pleased.
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Re: Israel

Postby Herosbane » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:05 pm

I agree with Melli that without outside intervention there isn't any realistic chance of a lasting peace. People don't change, unless its in their best interest to change. Show them that it is in their best interest to stop fighting.

I also think that the Jews, as a people, need to get over it. It is the holocaust. It was a horrible event, but to extend the rape-victim analogy, we give victims counseling and help them move on with their lives precisely so that they don't overreact and are able to live normal lives.
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Re: Israel

Postby Half + Seven » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:26 pm

Dr.Mellifluous wrote:The rest of it though is BIBLICAL and large parts of it no practicing Muslim would ever deny.
Like this?
Dr.Mellifluous wrote: Jews got enslaved and oppressed for most of their existence (even ignoring the biblical record).
This is clearly not going to be agreed upon. Many of the Muslims in question would deny this. I could do the same with your "solution" in which you also contradict yourself, but why even bother? I've lost the will to argue further. You call me ignorant and a retard, but the whole funny-because-it's-true bit only works if the truth is a small thing. You'll just deny it again or call me a retard or ignorant or maybe even a new word, maybe something cool I don't even know about. Good guy wins. Bad guy loses. Big freakin' surprise. That's the problem with this board: Can't handle any complexity. Whoa! Don't make me think!
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:26 am

Herosbane wrote:I also think that the Jews, as a people, need to get over it. It is the holocaust. It was a horrible event, but to extend the rape-victim analogy, we give victims counseling and help them move on with their lives precisely so that they don't overreact and are able to live normal lives.


Well the thing is therapy for cultures/societies/races is, as far as I know, not really a science, or even much of an explored concept. And the choice to stay in Israel was a poor one, location-wise, as it basically reopens the trauma constantly. Lastly, the Holocaust was just the last in a long line of such events, so the cumulative effect is a bit hard to argue with, or rather, heal. I think my children's generation of American Jews will be largely over the Holocaust, so to speak (if I'm allowed to get married and have them, mind you).

Half + Seven wrote:This is clearly not going to be agreed upon. Many of the Muslims in question would deny this. I could do the same with your "solution" in which you also contradict yourself, but why even bother? I've lost the will to argue further. You call me ignorant and a retard, but the whole funny-because-it's-true bit only works if the truth is a small thing. You'll just deny it again or call me a retard or ignorant or maybe even a new word, maybe something cool I don't even know about. Good guy wins. Bad guy loses. Big freakin' surprise. That's the problem with this board: Can't handle any complexity. Whoa! Don't make me think!


I allowed myself to be distracted by your point about Muslims not believe the historical record. So listen up: simply because the two sides don't agree on parts of their history doesn't mean this conflict doesn't have a beginning, or identifiable historical causes. Literally, it begins with the foundation of Judaism, without which Islam would not exist. More specifically and less literally, there are two sides to this conflict, so each side has its own timeline and points wherein it intersects the other timeline. Whether or not another side has altered its own perception or historical record has little bearing on the truths of the matter when so much empirical evidence has been gathered. Still, no practicing Muslim or Jew will deny that Ishmael and Isaac were both children of Abraham.

I call you a retard because, honestly, I get more than a little fired up over this entire debate, and for that I apologize. I also call you a retard because I get mad that you don't make points well or respond to critiques of your points, and for that I do not apologize. You pick at minutiae instead and when your arguments are all clearly defeated you resort to insults. It's pathetic, and that's the problem with you: can't handle any complexity. I'll try not to make you think in the future, and just stick to calling you names that denigrate your intelligence instead of proving points.
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Re: Israel

Postby Herosbane » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:15 am

Half + Seven wrote:This is clearly not going to be agreed upon. Many of the Muslims in question would deny this. I could do the same with your "solution" in which you also contradict yourself, but why even bother? I've lost the will to argue further. You call me ignorant and a retard, but the whole funny-because-it's-true bit only works if the truth is a small thing. You'll just deny it again or call me a retard or ignorant or maybe even a new word, maybe something cool I don't even know about. Good guy wins. Bad guy loses. Big freakin' surprise. That's the problem with this board: Can't handle any complexity. Whoa! Don't make me think!


Man you are not even making a point here. There is no argument presented.

There are plenty of historical episodes of antisemitism to pick from. What about during the Black Death when Jews were rounded up and killed because people blamed them for the plague? Insular groups very quickly alienate the general populace, and make themselves into good scapegoats when people need someone to blame.

P.S. Melli, don't go poisoning my wells. I know how you people love to do that.
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Re: Israel

Postby Kaz » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:35 am

Melli, I'm not sure what to argue at this point. The state of Israel is far more murderous than Hamas has even been. How can't you see that? They just killed over 500 Palestinians to avenge the death of 3 Israelis. They also bombed 2 schools and killed 4 of their own soldiers, so don't tell me they're being careful of surgical in their attacks. Every time they shell and bomb it's to instill terror, and they pretty much say as much.

Israel still occupies 94% of Palestinian territory. When they finally moved their military presence out of Gaza, they blockaded it all around, even by sea. There are walls built around Gaza, checkpoints everywhere. It's humiliating and degrading. Worse, the World Food Programme and UN relief aid can't move all the aid trucks that the population needs, even during peace time. When Israel said they would soon let 80 trucks in even during the attack, that's all well and good. Except they need about 200 per day, and that's when they're not getting shelled.
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Re: Israel

Postby Dr.Mellifluous » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:12 am

Kaz wrote:Melli, I'm not sure what to argue at this point. The state of Israel is far more murderous than Hamas has even been. How can't you see that? They just killed over 500 Palestinians to avenge the death of 3 Israelis. They also bombed 2 schools and killed 4 of their own soldiers, so don't tell me they're being careful of surgical in their attacks. Every time they shell and bomb it's to instill terror, and they pretty much say as much.


See, I don't know how you can't see that everything you're saying is completely out of context. Israel is not just avenging the death of 3 Israelis, Israel is taking steps to remove a globally recognized terrorist organization that has been a constant and consistent threat to the nation since its creation (Hamas's, although the point that Israel has been constantly threatened on all sides since its creation is something you also neglect to mention). Israel has not killed 500 innocent Palestinians, the majority of those are Hamas militants. Israel warns their targets before attacking them, and I repeat, where has that EVER happened before. Every time they shell and bomb it does instill terror, but that's not the purpose of it, the purpose is to destabilize Hamas and reduce its capacity for violence.

Because, honestly, at the end of the day, if the situation was reversed, all the Jews would be dead. At the end of the day, Hamas represent the politics and religion of fear. It is in their charter that Israel must be destroyed, they encourage people to blow themselves up and they do so in places like dance clubs, funerals, religious services and schools. When Israel destroys places like those, it's largely accidental, or they're being used as munition dumps. Hamas does it on purpose, and Hamas does it first. Israeli violence comes about in response to Hamas. And you don't acknowledge this, and I don't understand that. I know that Israel isn't always in the right, but look at the context of the situation. Israel may be more murderous, but Hamas is actively striving to be more murderous. The IDF's goal is not to kill civilians, Hamas's is.

Kaz wrote:Israel still occupies 94% of Palestinian territory. When they finally moved their military presence out of Gaza, they blockaded it all around, even by sea. There are walls built around Gaza, checkpoints everywhere. It's humiliating and degrading. Worse, the World Food Programme and UN relief aid can't move all the aid trucks that the population needs, even during peace time. When Israel said they would soon let 80 trucks in even during the attack, that's all well and good. Except they need about 200 per day, and that's when they're not getting shelled.


What do you define as Palestinian territory? And where does this percentage come from? And what about these numbers on aid trucks? Israel allows a great deal of aid to reach the Palestinians, and are even behind some of it themselves. Does Hamas return the favor? No, Hamas instead calls for the bloody annihilation of Israel. And yeah, maybe checkpoints are degrading and humiliating, but they're also effective. The number of suicide bombers has dropped drastically since they've created these checkpoints. And if they were honest, peaceful neighbors, there would be no need for such measures in the first place.

Maybe we can't agree on this, but I don't understand why not. I continuously address each of your points, and you seem to fail to understand mine in return. I don't know how to bridge this breakdown in communication. There is no justification for the taking of innocent life, I believe that. I also believe people have the right to defend themselves. Israel is under constant attack or threat of attack from all sides, and thanks to Hamas, from within. Asking these people to not defend themselves makes no sense to me. Your position basically seems to imply that all the wrong-doing is on the part of Israel, and that is just stinky bullshit. Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization, first and foremost. That's why it was created, that's why it has prospered, because it advocates the death of Israel. I don't know how you can look at Hamas and look at Israel and call Israel the bad guy. If constant rocket bombardment for the past 3 years isn't designed to spawn terror and kill people, I'm not sure what is. Because the dearth of Israeli deaths on the part of Hamas certainly isn't from lack of trying, while the number of Palestinian casualties is greatly reduced from what it could be because Israel is trying not to kill civilians. And once again, there's the difference, and I really, truly cannot understand why you don't see that.
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