Long time / Zeuter was right

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Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby harveymudd » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:05 am

He said I'd be back in 2 years, honestly I don't know if its been that long. Not to step on o's toes, but I recently taught myself java and made an android game with a friend.

I'd share it with you guys, but I'm sort of afraid. I just have a feeling that pix is going to come in here and shit all over me. If he does I'll just delete this message and leave you guys be.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:57 am

Hey there harvey, welcome back. =) oh, Zeuter is turning out to be quite on target these days.

You know, that spiel you got going with pix, it's been entertaining. =D I'm never sure if you're serious about being serious. and for so long. But you guys are lovely, I'm lovin you guys. =p

It is great to hear you're falling on your feet and trying yourself out learning new tricks. That's the spirit! I have always felt that there is a strong creativity in you seeking ways to break free and manifest, and this might be just it. I'm positively curious! don't be afraid.

I thought o's game was pretty nice. I'm excited by the prospect of more people showing their new forays in making things. Our place is a bit slow these days, but it's cushy more than ever.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby o » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:58 am

that's awesome, you should post it up.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby harveymudd » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:43 pm

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... ord.rgbtap

There it is. I'm still holding true to my original statement. If pix comes in here and shits on me I'm deleting this post.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:13 pm

You chose a good scope for your very first complete game. Getting it done&delivered is a valuable experience. I too sometimes thought of doing some kind of colour puzzle. Just to see put to use what I got, maybe for a little satisfaction, maybe for a little income. But alas, I'm too caught up hunting spooky visions. Maybe I'm not much of a game maker after all when I don't, you know, practice making games. Making and publishing games has never been this inviting.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby harveymudd » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:09 pm

It's not that hard. I made that game in 3 months. I'm sure an experienced programmer could make it in 48 hours though. I only have 12 total classes. The hard part is getting people to play it.

Flappy Birds, when looking at template code, does not have that many classes either. I have no idea how he went from 100 downloads to over 1 million after staying stagnant for 3 months.

His progression towards success is incredibly surreal.

1 - Release game
2 - Get 100 or so downloads.
3 - Do nothing for 3 months.
4 - Wake up and have 1 million downloads.

Some claim he used sock puppet accounts. I have no idea what those are or what that means. Whatever he did, he's keeping it a secret. He is obviously not doing it again though, as spin copters, his latest game, has fallen into absolute obscurity.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:26 pm

Yeah, but you gotta start somewhere to get that experience.

I remember reading about the guy who made the "Yo!" app. All it literally does is sending a "Yo!" message to your friends. He made it in two hours. Somehow it became a hit starting in the silicon valley. Then investors put more than a million dollars into his.. ahem.. "start-up".

>.> Fuck, man, what are we doing. x) kinda demoralizing. :/
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:39 pm

Well, anyways. Better just file that kinda freakish stuff under Fairy Tales. Do your thing, build the skills, work it up, be smart in your goals, step by step, don't forget about the fun along the way. That's the real life. and you're right on it now.

These things are a nice try on the side, especially if it's your profession to begin with, any creative should give it a shot to offset the usual payment of the day job. Otherwise it's like working as a waitress, but not taking tips. It's one of the few advantages of that line of work. Other jobs are more reliable but don't allow you anywhere that easily to get your own product out. Thus I think especially game coders and artists should set aside an hour a week for some pet project or risky rev share collab. Better and more fulfilling than playing the lottery.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby harveymudd » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:41 pm

In regards to the Yo app, I am fairly sure the code wasn't robust, but I am damn sure the code was clean.

The real success is how he got it out to the public.

I am beginning to think that those who understand marketing across social media are more important than those who might have the skills to make a really great game.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:58 pm

Hrrm, it's an age old contention, what matters more, the product or marketing.

Truth is there are success stories on both sides. Projects that were exceptionally skilled and innovative, without any marketing whatsoever, but becoming very successful for good reason and word of mouth.

And product that's successful because of the very skillful marketing and placement against close competition. But managing it, building the contacts in the industry and understanding the market is its own laborious difficulty, not necessarily less than working the product.

So it's like you gotta decide what you're more into for a realistic living, but it always ends up real work and/or big investment, as you're buying the pro service for success, to make up for what you got not.

That's how it is for the very most of us anyway. x-/ rest is freakish fate.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby o » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:40 am

Success in the mobile game market for a newcomer is based completely on luck. The market is flooded with thousands of new apps everyday, the only way to stand out is to be featured. How do you get featured? Pure luck. Someone at Apple notices your little game and decides to put it on a spotlight or front page etc. I'm sure that's what happened with Flappy Bird/Timberman etc.

You can try contacting the media or bloggers but at the end of the day the apps that are on the front page of a store are the ones that get the downloads. From there it just grows. You get more and more downloads just because you have so many downloads.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:56 pm

The only thing that reliably cheats the system for anyone is having a lot of money to begin with. The investment has your product stand out both in quality and bought advertisement/spotlight placement. That or having personal contacts to who matters, but those guys probably are drowning in sleazy friend-wanna-be-requests everyday.

We should define what "success" means anyway. The real problem is that expectations are completely bonkers. I don't believe in finding that cheesy trick to the system, but I don't believe there is nothing you can do either. I would guess even the mobile market is segmented, in casuals that don't really care, and gamers that want a real deal. Competing in something more serious shrinks your possible audience considerably, sure, but you can plan with it, and it might be just enough; what worth is mega-potential if you can't plan with it, because you don't have the spotlight-money nor personal contacts or flimsiest of luck.

And that means having the serious attitude, like in any other market, to build up yourself and a reliable audience, that depends on you for something better than usual as you depend on them for a reasonable living. The indie game aficionado market is multi-platform, that includes mobile, There are plenty people that want something serious to play on their phones instead of carrying around a Nintendo too. There are devs that serve that market and can live on it normally, including crowd-funded projects. The cooler your thing, the less effort you have convincing others to spread the word. The way communication works is, telling other people about something cool, makes you cool. So they are looking out for that.

That's what you gotta eventually learn to deliver, if you want to make this a real dev job instead of a lottery surrogate. It's a decision for commitment long-term. And the actual purpose of the free-little-app-with-advertisement market is to learn the trade, learn making games, getting experience, it's a studious playground, and the real misconception is seeing it as anything else.

Well, that's how I see it anyway. but who am I to talk. x_X
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby Zeuter » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:09 pm

The app I released a few days prior got frontpaged in the US/Canada iPad App Store, under the "Best New Games" category. Still not enough to pay the bills, but I have pretty good hopes for the next one.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:49 pm

How do you guys deal with all the legal&business bullshit? Like tax, ip, contracts with co-workers, etc. ever thought about that? got someone handling that for you? one of the things that keep me away from ever getting any serious. Money and fame be damned, I just don't care enough to deal with that sort of "overhead" and tied problems.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby Zeuter » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:08 pm

It's not hard at all. We formed a company and drafted a contract, then signed it. Chambers of commerce are quite helpful in that regard. The most difficult thing would be collecting and filing the tax returns for VAT (which companies don't have to pay for in NL), which one of us does. If you're getting scared off by a few days worth of paperwork per year, then you might just not want it enough. :P
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:28 am

Zeuter wrote: you might just not want it enough.

yeah. I'm rather unmotivated. it's not just the paperwork, but really everything that comes with that. it's a different life you're either into or not. expectations from having needs or not. When I see some of the pressure and drama projects have... I don't know, maybe that's life, maybe it's a thrill, maybe you gotta do to pay the bills, but right now I'm in full on dude-mode, things are alright-ish, on a level I've been getting used to. I went to some start-up scene conventions, looking around what's up... just not me, not my world. I'm the crazy hobo troll from tob.com.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby Zeuter » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:03 pm

You'd have to be an idiot to actually like start-up culture. It's horrible on many levels. The key is to find people with the same vision, who are very good at what they do, and who you don't mind spending a lot of time with. Pressure is high, but drama is something you choose along with your teammates.

Cooperation without physical presence (a shared office) will drive you insane from bad communication and loneliness. Don't even try it. Finding others with the same goal helps heaps with motivation, too.
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Re: Long time / Zeuter was right

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:26 pm

I'd say you figured that out about right. And it's more interesting to watch you move ahead than listening to why I don't. =p
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