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Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:08 pm
by Fledermaus
Pssst, o, can you get us into this?

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:08 pm
by Cassiel
While Heroes of the Storm is playable and much of the core experience is present, it’s still very much in the early stages of development. Work is ongoing and we’re far from considering the game in a polished or finalized state


How many people are working on this, anyway? It's been in development for over four years. Surely their team is bigger than ours was, and isn't spending most of their time on school-related nonsense.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:19 am
by Zeuter
2

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:27 pm
by RageAgainstVoid

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:13 pm
by o
Yes I can

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:40 pm
by Fledermaus
Do it!

(Can I actually even though I'm non-US?)

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:34 am
by o
everyone who wants in will need to post up their battle.net email. I put that email into a list and when another wave of invites go out you should get one.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:06 pm
by Deacon (AYC)
hayden.fitzg@gmail.com

I'm interested in riding this trainwreck of an alpha out with you guys.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:20 pm
by Cassiel
The levels in the latest video look a lot better than some of what I remember from before. The UI still needs a lot of work, but hopefully the gameplay fundamentals are there.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:35 pm
by Merlin
Thanks, I'd like to check it out as well.


j_g_johnston@hotmail.com

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:35 am
by RageAgainstVoid

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:13 pm
by MagicCarpetRide
Well, you probably dont know me but I love this game enough to still lurk here. Anyway, if its no problem I would like an invite as well. amardip.s.minhas@gmail.com

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:27 pm
by Deacon (AYC)
Watching this, the strongest point of the game is that it really seems super team dependent, and not having any items was a fantastic call on Blizzard's part. The times I've seen snowballing games reversed is through better team play/objective control - it really presses you not to dick around, otherwise the whole team is punished.

Unfortunately almost every ability looks straight out of DotA or LoL (even ToB, unsurprisingly), but then that really raises the question of how much originality is left in the genre when it comes to Hero Abilities.

Everything else I think you can write off to being an Alpha, but it definitely grew on me watching it over the last day.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:12 pm
by Cassiel
Deacon (AYC) wrote:that really raises the question of how much originality is left in the genre when it comes to Hero Abilities.

Nah. Magic is still doing new and interesting stuff after all these years. That said, an alpha isn't where you want to push the envelope. Nail the fundamentals first, then go nuts.

What's replacing the hero-building aspect that's largely been fulfilled by items in the past? Is that the goal of the leafier skill trees, and if so, are players getting a lot more levels/ability points to play with? That's where we were headed with AoB. Could work.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:35 pm
by RageAgainstVoid
I'm feelin' some new found love for Blizz lately, it's bizarre.
Just when I got all set and comfortable in the hate. But you can't hate skillz.
Even if it's buried in accounts and subscriptions and services and what have you.
I just wish I weren't feelin' too damn old for that shit -- I'm scared and confused.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:50 am
by Deacon (AYC)
Cassiel wrote:Nah. Magic is still doing new and interesting stuff after all these years.


New? No debate there. Interesting and/or fun? Really debatable. Devotion, heroic and inspired are pretty brainless mechanics, I actually sold my Standard stuff to get into Modern. I'd rather lose to the degenerate Storm combos that are rampant in Modern than play Magic in its recent rotation.

That said, an alpha isn't where you want to push the envelope. Nail the fundamentals first, then go nuts.


Which I really hope they stick to, and don't try to jump the gun because of the interest/popularity in streams right now.

What's replacing the hero-building aspect that's largely been fulfilled by items in the past? Is that the goal of the leafier skill trees, and if so, are players getting a lot more levels/ability points to play with? That's where we were headed with AoB. Could work.


Their level up system, from what I've seen, gives you a choice between either leveling out your abilities, or adding passive upgrades to your damage/health/aoe of certain spells/[insert flexible variable here], which with tuning I think is a great idea. I wouldn't be shocked if they play around with a skill tree similar to the one for Kerrigan in the HotS campaign sometime during the beta, if this is going to be a casual and readily accessible game then the ability to customize on that level would be a focal point, I'd imagine.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:22 am
by RageAgainstVoid
Hrm, personally I'm not convinced getting rid of items improves the game. Maybe a point is to be made about how this streamlines the play to similar effect in the basics; but there is something about items that makes more sense, a flexibility that allows for tricks and teamplay you just plain can't do via skills only. That is, if done right... I feel they axed it too soon then, instead of trying to get it right. When I look at the direction ToB O was taking with special items, not only am I confused why other games still haven't caught up to that, but even losin' it completely now. It's like saying "Just look at Dota. Prove that items are bad."

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:43 am
by RageAgainstVoid
I guess it's similar to when discussing Cooldown & Mana. No doubt there are bad cases of play that have to do with one or the other. But is that to blame the principle or particular implementation. Certainly the combination is quite useful for fine-tuning balance in ways you couldn't by only relying on either Cooldown or Mana. There's different aspects to strategy and serves for neat abilities. If done right.

I've often noticed about designs, there is something almost magical about a two way control, it just seems to hit a sweet spot; not more, not less; primary, secondary. I think getting rid of one instead of getting the stats right for both, is too aggressive. In both cases you can say, better less things than more bad things. I'm just not convinced it can only be bad. And if it's good, it's better. Bliz is one company I'd expect going that extra mile to make it good for the better, so I'm surprised they would sort of cheap out on that.

But on the other hand, they are definitely doing a lot of things otherwise that are interesting, so it's not like this is an issue that breaks it, it's the kind of game it is then.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:03 am
by Deacon (AYC)
I really can't see them adding items OUTRIGHT because the focus of this game seems to be "look how easy this is to master/how little you need to do, you don't have six item slots filled with active items!!" but I have a feeling that buying 'abilities' per se might be an experiment worth trying when the Beta comes around. It'd fit in with the broadness of trait/passive upgrading with levels, and would satisfy the level of customisation and flexibility that players of the MOBA genre demand.

I mean, it isn't a real AoS/MOBA unless a good chunk of the players have the ability to blink around the map at will :king:

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:09 am
by Cassiel
The downside of items is having to go back and buy them. It breaks up the flow of the game and leads to hacks like couriers.

In AoB players would've chosen both a hero and a Shtick™, which gives the hero access to another skill tree for spending resources. E.g. you choose Lone Wolf, which opens up abilities that provide bonuses when no allies are around, when engaging multiple enemies, etc. The idea was to have shticks and associated abilities every bit as thematic as the core heroes, so players could build against type and, say, combine a typical glass cannon with the Diehard shtick, or build for synergy and combine a support hero (buffs/activatable auras) with the Master and Commander shtick, which lets you reinforce spawn waves and what not. I think it would've been pretty cool. Items would probably still have existed, but in a form rather different from what we're used to in the genre.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:43 am
by o
There is something nice about never having to go back to base. The inclusion of LOL's teleport button that sends you back to base seems odd and redundant considering you can just heal up in your little outposts and that you have a mount to quickly move around. Mounts are weird though, I always forget to use it.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:35 pm
by Cassiel
Yup, those are all hacks to patch more fundamental design problems. They're bass-ackwards and the results are rubbish. HotS is doing the right thing by stepping back and trying to address the real issues.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:52 pm
by Deacon (AYC)
Cassiel wrote:In AoB players would've chosen both a hero and a Shtick™, which gives the hero access to another skill tree for spending resources. E.g. you choose Lone Wolf, which opens up abilities that provide bonuses when no allies are around, when engaging multiple enemies, etc. The idea was to have shticks and associated abilities every bit as thematic as the core heroes, so players could build against type and, say, combine a typical glass cannon with the Diehard shtick, or build for synergy and combine a support hero (buffs/activatable auras) with the Master and Commander shtick, which lets you reinforce spawn waves and what not. I think it would've been pretty cool. Items would probably still have existed, but in a form rather different from what we're used to in the genre.

Not nearly as sophisticated, but this seems like the general idea behind their level up system. As I mentioned earlier, I'm pretty sure come Beta they'll introduce something along these lines, but probably more like the SC2 campaign tree.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:29 pm
by RageAgainstVoid
Items do have a sense not that easily replaced. And some things fit much better with them, also thematically. The possibility to easily swap items on the fly to adapt situationally, sharing items with other players, further facilitated by items taking advantage of that (load/charge), and pooling towards builds. I feel this adds to the game in a valuable way. Trying to do this without items would feel no less awkward than what's done around buying items. I am not entirely convinced that buying and building are to be considered disruptive interference to the flow, rather than pauses part of the flow. I would rather place all shops into the battlefield, which would considerably shorten the travel and at the same time add to strategic hotspots natural, vied for control.

Re: Heroes of the Storm

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:30 pm
by RageAgainstVoid
There is something very neat about giving gameplay elements a "physical" embodiment in the world, it often enriches the play in a feedback loop, than hiding decisions in a ephemeral user interface.

Like in RTS. in form of buildings giving upgrade paths a manifestation, so that decisions can be scouted and predicted, and are susceptible through destruction. It opens up interactivity.

The inventory of another player serves a similar purpose. You can spy intentions by what they are wearing, and to which shop they are heading, and possibly affect it with removing/targeting items or deny areas, it is palpable for many kinds of actions and reactions in the world, and offers another opportunity for abilities around that, all in a way that makes a lot of sense.