how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Kaz » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:12 pm

Zeuter wrote:It's funny how I'm one of the few people here who actually ended up making videogames for a living, considering I never contributed to ToB itself. Whatever happened to the other contributors?


I tried but I found out to my detriment that it was an incredibly abusive industry.

I'm thinking of going back to school but I dunno in what.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Zeuter » Wed May 01, 2013 7:40 am

Software development is alright, but not in the game industry. Before I started with CS, I vowed to never enter it. This was based on the rumour that it is a terrible industry to work in, which as you said Kaz, is true. However, I then met my current boyfriend who studies game design (it's a horrible degree, but at least he's mainly going for the business side of things). We formed a small 3-man studio (tech, art, design/business) along with one of his friends. This changes things, as we're no longer working for someone else and are thus not subjected to the horrors and awful pay of your regular game company. Every person in our team is actually very good at what they do, so I'm quite confident we'll produce something of quality.

I know it's generally a terrible idea to enter into a business relationship when already in a romantic relationship, but I feel like we're rational enough to handle it properly if things might go wrong.

We're currently working on a f2p game (haha, quality) which is basically our one shot at fame (cq money). If it fails, we'll have little interest in continuing our cooperation and I'll proceed creating my bizarre art installations or get a master's degree. If it succeeds, I'll do either of those anyway but will have a lot more money for it.

@melli: The entirety of August, really. I'll probably be in either Philly or NY for 80% of the time. There's no exact itinerary yet.

@rav: You're free to visit and serenade me at my balcony.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Kaz » Wed May 01, 2013 1:45 pm

What do you do for money?
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Wed May 01, 2013 2:08 pm

@Zeut
I appreciate that you've been able to differentiate between the principal matter of the thing in our discussions and your particular circumstances. Instead of taking it personally and feeling discouraged and offended, you rather think about your situation in greater awareness to have life run more in your favour. This world is a hellhole, people need to understand the better cases, the worse cases, and chances of either, to make informed decisions on the details -- and these often make all the difference. Proud of ya, you get both my thumbs up on your stunt.

My stance on various issues is more complex than I might have communicated anyway. It's just that I'd have time for nothing else than ranting here if I tried to explain every balanced aspect of what I think. It's also that I make many decisions that work alright for me but that I would never recommend to anyone else.

Just the other day some kid was talking about starting out making his own game, and he argued that Game Maker would probably be too limited compared going custom code. Now I could have made myself feel all good about the way I do things and tell him he should just take example by my glorious lead. But rather I told him why I'm wrong:
RAV wrote:You learn more about making a game on Game Maker than on your own. It is a designer's proving ground. If you can't make a good game on it, it is unlikely you will otherwise. Most people can't even fully realize game making potential on it, so that begs the question what they'd do so much better otherwise; usually they end up remaking it worse than going beyond.

Priorities, son. As an aspiring game maker, your first priority should be to learn write a game. No really, learn to write. No, not the code. The game. Design. Literature. I am fucking bored of bad alibi writing in games. I'd rather play an ASCII text adventure if it is written well than another clinical ergotherapy called game. If that is done fairly well I *might* even bother with the click-idy-click inbetween.

...

Having a good wingman is a game changer for sure, but those are difficult to find. The true blessing of those ready frameworks really is that you can put up a one man show if in doubt, it gives you a fighting chance on your own. Making any good game of even small size is such a large undertaking underestimated hindsight, you can be a hydra headed development monster and still not be enough. The most important skill is resource management, making do best with what you have rather than loosing yourself in scope creep.

Thing is we've already been through phases, like with ToB on War3. We've explored designs, had discussions, experimented, within this playground. We brew, we grew, a whole damn lot. The way we go about things now might be right for us, but maybe not right for him at his point. Even for me, it's an open question thus far, but I have my interests.

And that pertains pretty much to everything else about my life. When shit hits the fan, most people think about my ways as that of a loser, while I think they're stupid in theirs. But at the end of the day, I'd never actually recommend my ways, because I know it just wouldn't work out for most, they'd become very dangerously unhappy more than on anything else. It's my ways, I know why and how to deal with it; still I'm not always happy myself. And that's all.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Turkey_Slayer » Wed May 01, 2013 2:11 pm

I think I'll be back in Delaware for a week in early August, but I'm not sure right now if I'll have the time to travel up to Filthadelphia.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Wed May 01, 2013 4:28 pm

Kaz wrote:What do you do for money?

Callboy. That dirty tease. :mrgreen:
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Zeuter » Thu May 02, 2013 2:06 am

RageAgainstVoid wrote:My stance on various issues is more complex than I might have communicated anyway. It's just that I'd have time for nothing else than ranting here if I tried to explain every balanced aspect of what I think. It's also that I make many decisions that work alright for me but that I would never recommend to anyone else.


Sie müssten ein Beamter sein. But thanks for the support. :)

It's not even really the making a game part that's the most fun, although coding anything with graphics is better than without. The most fun part is that, as the sole tech guy in our team, I have to learn a dozen new things everyday. Being forced to expand your knowledge out of necessity is a great feeling. It's all quite varied too: AI/pathfinding, databases, graphics, networks, UI and of course keeping the entire thing maintainable/extensible through good architecture. Even if the game is a commercial failure, I won't walk away empty-handed.

@Kaz: I'm still a student so I do this in my off hours. In SOCIALIST HELL NETHERLANDS, the government gives/loans you a tiny amount of money each month to live on. For many it's not enough and those people get part time jobs in restaurants, cleaning etc. I get by through living frugally.

@Turk: Just shoot me a PM when you know. We can go visit the Bike Stop and get hit on buy guys older than our dads (this is more amusing than it sounds).
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu May 02, 2013 11:51 am

Oh don't worry, it totally will flop. :lol: for more reasons than your own fault.

You have the right idea though. I remember Charlie from NS2 once saying something like "You learn more about business in starting a business than studying MBA, even or especially if your business fails. Both cost you about the same anyway. But in actually doing business you have a chance, any chance, to succeed for real -- in school you don't even have that." You are young enough to put up with that and less bound to social contracts yet that you can go on adventure time for the hell of it.

I don't feel much of a game maker myself these days, more like a technician toying around. Like I was saying the other day: The thing I enjoy most about what I do is really the "sketch up" phase, prototyping this or that, proof of concept, that stuff is by far the funnest and relaxed about it (especially when shit goes wrong, gfx and ai bugs are often hilarious), everything after that is something between a lot less gratifying for my time or straight out annoying. The creative act has become my toyish gameplay in itself, there is all too often little reason to go beyond that for a real game.

Otherwise I could have pumped out dozens of little shit games by now to try learn the little tricks of the trade. I keep reminding me about the importance of design, writing, arts, and that these can be embraced without detriment to substantial gameplay, just like we know that better accessability doesn't have to mean less challenging, but to be honest, it probably won't have much if any of those in the initial stages.

Hey, I was just reminded, our Chriz. went working on Rayman Legends.
The latest Awesome! on that:
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Turkey_Slayer » Thu May 02, 2013 1:24 pm

Has Chriz. been working on Rayman Legends, too?
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Thu May 02, 2013 1:41 pm

Chriz. is a working legend. I'm a fool, and you're still a cunt.

(ninja edit to make you look silly more than me)

(edit2: correction: you're a dirty cunt.)
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Zeuter » Sat May 04, 2013 12:29 am

RageAgainstVoid wrote:Oh don't worry, it totally will flop. :lol: for more reasons than your own fault.

You have the right idea though. I remember Charlie from NS2 once saying something like "You learn more about business in starting a business than studying MBA, even or especially if your business fails. Both cost you about the same anyway. But in actually doing business you have a chance, any chance, to succeed for real -- in school you don't even have that." You are young enough to put up with that and less bound to social contracts yet that you can go on adventure time for the hell of it.


What reasons might those be specifically? The first step in avoiding a trap, is knowing of its existence. :wink: (Did I just quote one of the terrible prequels? I've read those too :oops: )

Additionally, what if we don't fail? I feel like assuming failure is simply setting yourself up for it - your motivation dries up, someone leaves and that's that. If you intend to make something work and aren't a blithering idiot about it, you learn from your mistakes and keep improving your product based on those lessons.

In Dutch inner circles, ambition and entrepreneurship are generally looked down upon. One isn't supposed to stand out from the crowd through being better at something than others, a major flaw in our Calvinist legacy. The majority of students/schoolgoing children like to pass with the minimum amount of effort required (also referred to as the "zesjescultuur"). This creates a playing field where very, very few people are ambitious at all, which makes it hard to find business partners. Practically none of my peers have even considered ever starting a business, and that's in university. On the flip side, the government is desperately trying to stimulate entrepreneurship, making fiscal and other benefits available.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat May 04, 2013 3:20 am

Zeuter wrote:In Dutch inner circles, ambition and entrepreneurship are generally looked down upon.
Same story in Germany. Maybe the same in Europe at large.

It's good that you defend your spirit. Believe in yourself, who else if not you.

Sadly, in our culture and education we are taught early on that making a mistake is very critical, mistakes are to be punished severely, mistakes make you a loser -- and if you can't do it right the first time, don't even start, you won't get another chance anyway. It's a society of "the chosen ones" that supposedly are born to be better from the start.

See, in my bluntness to your face, what I'm trying to say is to assume failure as natural part of the game, something that is not worth being afraid of because it just sets you up for more success next time. That's what's so fun about games: they are designed to motivate you in mistakes, with consequence in learning rather than blaming.

A savvy business man has become good because he was bad ten times before. He didn't give up on the first time when it almost inevitably went to shit, but used the lessons learned to give it another shot. And another. Thing is, instead of living in denial to protect his motivation, he coldly faced the real chance for failure in his investment beforehand, such that any one failure wouldn't keep him from ever trying again. Even later on, when he becomes super successfull, failure is always part of his game, he just has more means to spread the risks so that overall it's more win than loss.

By far most start-ups fail. And gaming start-ups even more. Yes even on Kickstarters. The flood gates on the market are wide open for fortune hunters out on a quick buck, all motivated by some cinderella story. It looks too easy to pass, that's why it's so difficult now to hit.

I fail all the fucking time in every possible way. Often I make it a point to fail, it's a calculated move of my work method, I want to watch how things break apart every which way to understand it. Other times I just fall on my nose. It's all part of my expectation. Makes me wonder what keeps me going and trying. Something stronger than worship of success. Maybe it's a greater vision I believe in, maybe it's just my sense of humor.

So saying all that, what I picked at nonchallantly in one line before, was your "basically our one shot at fame (cq money). If it fails, we'll have little interest in continuing" is basically how young people think about love. It's romantically super-inflated, and that's tragic. The first time means chicken shit really. It's all the other times after that where the magic happens out of experience. Or so I have heard.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Zeuter » Sat May 04, 2013 4:21 am

Oh yes, we expect many things to go wrong. Failure would be finishing the game as we have envisioned it now, but not getting any sales after several periods of advertising. I get what you mean, it won't be simply printing money. We actually do have plans for re-using the "engine" I've written for a similar game. Still, I'd like our first game to be at least slightly popular before we go there. Adding more content to the first game though might be a better idea initially than branching to a different game.

I do hope that, with the sheer amount of hilarious shovelware hitting the app store shelves right now, it's not that hard to stand out with a bit of polish. But that's just my optimism speaking.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat May 04, 2013 4:51 am

Zeuter wrote:Oh yes, we expect many things to go wrong. Failure would be finishing the game as we have envisioned it now, but not getting any sales after several periods of advertising.

Happens to the best, games and otherwise. The example with general business really meant they totally ruin several ventures at their best effort before they do it right. And because statistics > optimism, they were clever enough to burn the money of investors rather than their own, with the right exit strategy for the next ad venture. On the other hand, for the same reasons, investors are clever enough to know they lose money on 9 out of 10 start-ups, or whatever, but count on the one that makes it worth having tried the others.

The way you mentioned it first didn't sound that important to you, but if it is, let me tell you, I have more hopes for your success than I have for mine. Don't get annoyed by my silly spiel, it's how I roll.

:mrgreen:
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat May 04, 2013 10:15 pm

There is this saying: "If you share your bed with a dog, don't be surprised to get fleas." Maybe the best way to success now simply is turning your back on me and run! rather than have me drag you into my black hole.

:lol:

I don't really know what's your case and what's your chance. Success can be engineered too, somewhat. And getting the right people on board is hard enough, you got that part in the bag, so anything can happen. Give it your best fight, it's worth the try. Don't make it your last stand if you can help it, live to fight another day, all I'm saying.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby diab knows his password » Wed May 08, 2013 11:39 am

I work for a large health insurance company, working at home. I write software apps that automate the payment of certain types of claims so they don't have to hire claims processors to do it.

Full time employees saved: ~25, thus far.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Myth » Fri May 17, 2013 5:20 pm

Dr.Mellifluous wrote:To live past the end of your myth is a perilous thing.


So true. But it's worse for the Myth.





Way more neurotic. Way less reckless. I'm pretty disappointed in myself.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby o » Fri May 17, 2013 6:49 pm

Back then I was a little shit just starting high school. It wasn't until I played tob that I got serious about game art. I've been working as an artist at Blizzard for almost 2 years now.

I'm the same person, hopefully more mature.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Cassiel » Fri May 17, 2013 9:39 pm

Kaz wrote:I'm thinking of going back to school but I dunno in what.

Maths. Machine learning is way fun. Wish I had a solid foundation for it. You should get in on the linear algebra for comp sci class that's coming up: https://www.coursera.org/course/matrix
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby harveymudd » Sun May 19, 2013 10:19 am

Seriously?
I just logged on to check this site out after I don't know, a year or so and Pix is still going at it with "how to deal with the harvey mudds of this world."

Get a life man. I've already hit the lowest point and its only getting worse.

You know what, fuck it. I only wish ill will on you Pix man. Hope you suffer 10 times what I have.

Oh and another thing. I'm no net detective, nor do I care to be one, neither can I hack or do anything spiteful online.

Before you ask; don't try to net detective me, I was evicted from my apartment months ago. Where do I live? With a friend. Who? None of your business.

"Deal with the harvey mudds of this world." What does that even mean? Beat a man who is already down as far as he could go? You are fucking lower than the lowest piece of shit pix.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Turkey_Slayer » Sun May 19, 2013 12:25 pm

I think that was the first bit of drama seen on this site in 3 years.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby harveymudd » Sun May 19, 2013 1:04 pm

And it will be the last as I don't want to be bothered with the "Pix's of this world."

To everyone else here, I wish you all the best and hope you find all the joy in the world. To pix, go fuck yourself with a rusty knife.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby o » Sun May 19, 2013 10:14 pm

I almost wish I knew the history between pix and harveymudd.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby harveymudd » Mon May 20, 2013 7:01 am

There is no history.
Pix just tries to find every opportunity to throw jabs at me in every possible manner.

I was sick of it before, which is why I stopped visiting this site, and I guess he's still going at it.

He makes threads asking about roger federer or some other bullshit and then puts an arbitrary poll at the top stating "who do you hate more raven, harveymudd, raven, harveymudd."

He asks you all how you're different in the last 10 years, but instead of just asking the question, he finds time to throw in a subtle jab directed at me.

He's made fun of my bankruptcy and debt issues (stay classy man), continuously calls me an idiot and a moron, and has basically succeeded in his own little way to ostracize me completely from this community.

So yes, I am sick of it and I'm tired of being picked on by an immature brat. I could make an announcement here that I have cancer and he would post a thread with a poll taking votes on how long I have to live.

Yes, I'd love to meet him in real life. I'd love to settle some of my issues with him face to face, but I'd probably go to jail as all the rage I have towards him would result in me beating him to death with a pipe wrench. Fortunately this is the internet, and fortunately I never have to meet such a vile passive aggressive pile of shit. What's even more fortunate is I never have to talk about this further as I have the power to never visit or post here again, which I am going to do right now.

Zeuter, you always made me laugh.
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Re: how do you compare to almost 10 year ago you?

Postby Turkey_Slayer » Mon May 20, 2013 12:43 pm

Spoiler:
He does it because you react to it.
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