Project Game, Design Eternity

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Re: Project Eternity

Postby Cassiel » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:54 pm

Interesting. I was only disgusted by writing code until I actually started writing code. Then it gave me a hard-on. There are parallels here to girls* and cooties, I think.

* Or boys. Whatever boats your float.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:01 pm

o, I actually don't doubt it's good. I still admire Bliz for a lot of things. And it makes actually sense to me they make this game. I guess my vitriol comes from the context, the inexplainability when they take 15 generalists to build something "out of their comfort zone", and did not manage to build an AoS, which should entirely be in their comfort zone, in that time, and which should not have taken more than those 15 generalists. I'm sure things are more complicated behind the scene. It's just frustrating to watch from the outside.

I even must admit I like a lot about Hots, It's still not my kind of game, and there's still things to critisize, but I can certainly appreciate really neat things about it.

But there is something else about Bliz work that leaves me outside looking for something else. I wished they'd be able to reconcile the thing I am looking for with their amazing quality, but that's probably not possible, that's why I am more and more inclined to entirely disregard quality, in search for.. uhm.. another kind of quality? Maybe more on that later.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:22 pm

Cassiel wrote:Interesting. I was only disgusted by writing code until I actually started writing code. Then it gave me a hard-on. There are parallels here to girls* and cooties, I think.

* Or boys. Whatever boats your float.


For me it's pretty much what Kaz said. Writing code is cool, having to interface with other people's code most likely not. The less I have to do this, the more often I found myself coding.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:36 pm

But it's also what Zeut said, in so far that most languages and environments annoy the living fuck out of me. It wasn't until I had turned enough shit into my own thing that I could really enjoy it, and since I am admittedly batshit weird in many things, this took longer than it should have.

I don't think I could do this kind of work professionally though; my ways just don't integrate, and I am sure annoy everyone else just the same. I have to carve out my own little cave somwhere in the middle of nowhere and watch the star-filled sky in front of it at my bonfire.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:47 pm

I'm really not a good example to live by though, I'm a dumb fuck, and so is everyone who does the same. :lol:
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:59 pm

Cassiel wrote:Yeah but if I get my own company off the ground I'll drag you over on an H1B.
Oh, don't you worry 'bout me, make the best out of it for yourself, I enjoy that thought. Frankly, I can't imagine how I'd factor in that way, my talents are whimsical and irresponsible, I don't trust/rely on myself, how would you, it would break my heart if I was in the way of your success; i'm sure I would. Whatever I had to tell technically fundamental, I probably could within a day, and it is likely you already know, at latest by that time, even something better, since you have no reason to isolate competence. I'm convinced you'd have an easier time and more promising outlook starting out on your own than fiddling with my shit. And in terms of general ideas I'm sure you have already more than you could possible do. Also, at my 31 years, I feel settled and at peace, even if it is on nothing and alone. You should really save that money and effort for someone qualified, instead of throwing it into the bonfire of an old dog who's not about new tricks in a new world. =))

I'd rather see you take your career full on, and the mode of operation that seems most realistic to me is licencing and consulting with you and Kaz, similar to Torment in the Numenera setting, in a division of competences, even though they certainly intersect and that actually improves collaboration. I'd rather not see serious investments and quality of life at risk, other than personal time at personal pace, and rather move towards a common goal indirectly, but yet nontheless have us profit from that together if that were to happen by chance.


Cassiel wrote:Other than the way they marketed the SC2 editor and the idea of an app store for mods, I can't recall any transparently evil behavior from Blizzard. So despite their many recent shortcomings, I'd like to see them succeed (creatively, that is -- they're doing just fine financially).


I agree. Blizzard looks customer oriented and delivers quality, still more than most anyone. What made them appealing to me more than ten years ago was some indy/risky charms they had on occasion, married with polish. Then they started getting really good at things, and the better they got, the worse they've become: they polished away all those interesting edges "that didn't work/make sense/were unneccecary" but gave personality to the game from my pespective. Now the experience is smoother than it ever was, and I am really bored. The things they got really good at are hardly relevant to me today, or so basic after all these years I take them for granted, and I believe this is within an unresolvable conflict of interest. They simply can't succeed creatively to what would catch back my interest, lest they'd be less successful financially. What purpose Blizzard serves me these days is an examplified warning of what I'd do different were I to make a game.

Lately I've been watching a lot of game cinematics of random fringe AAA titles. (shit's off the charts, and took me a week to watch the following two)


These games and their writing.. I could certainly critisize them a million times more than anything Blizzard has ever faulted.. and yet I like them a lot more than anything Blizzard has ever done. It is one more example that what really matters by far most is the weird details of personal self a developer puts into his work, not what works best streamlined. Often these will even collide, and in that case you know what, I prefer the first, many of the older games always did in their "bad design" by today's perfected standards.

Cassiel wrote:But games are a rough business with below-market pay and poor quality of life. Employers get away with it because there are far more people trying to get into games than there are jobs available. E.g. this. So unless I start a game company, it's just unlikely I'd go that direction at this point.

Yeah, I'm thinking the same. Some day it occured to me that "becoming a game developer" is the new "I wanna be an actor/popstar/novelist/athlete/entertainer". 99% chance your life will end up horrible, while you feel inspired and made-believe by the 1% that made it and own the world. These kinds of things are best served a hobby. And when on some days my mood is bad, I see some of those starlets earn 100 times the money in a year than a scientist in his entire life who pushed all of humanity to a new height, I want to burn down civilization, rebuild it as god emperor and forbid by threat of death that people make payed living on these things.

While at the same time, I'd like to make a living by game. =)) I'm full of dichotomy. Even when I'm making a game, the technician in me wants simulated/generated real-time action, the gamer in me want's handcrafted, turn-based experience. Confusing.

Cassiel wrote:Publishing is the same way. Every nerd with an English degree wants in, so the pay is terrible, although in publishing you don't face 60+-hour work weeks at most companies. I lasted 9 months at $30k in San Francisco. Never again. If you're really fucking smart, do something only really fucking smart people can do. That's how you make money.

Yarr, it's kinda why I went the way of Afterlife, not that it's a big deal, but enough to seperate myself from whatever else is drowning the market out there these days. All these easy solutions pre-made, and you see all those clueless people throwing out "their own game", that's pretty much a hundred lines of their code embedded in a hundred thousand lines of someone else's, and there is so much cheap out there, people don't even know anymore what to play, no one got the time, whatever quality produced that way easily falls under the radar because it kinda looks the same as everything else.

Cassiel wrote:But I share your affinity for the rhythms of physical work, which are bound up with all the arts except, oddly, writing. It's amazing reading Rilke on Rodin or Cezanne, or Deleuze on Francis Bacon, the physicality of their work, and, in Rilke's case, the effort to bring that to writing with his Dinggedichten. Or the way Wordsworth composed in his head while walking for hours and hours every single day without ever stopping to write.

Yup, it's funny, movement really does support the fluency of mind. I feel it great torture to have sit in one place when really thinking things through. Don't even think it's that much of a personal preference, don't know how kids in school not riot every day.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:08 pm

Haha, well, at least that "Azura's Wrath" isn't all that great tbh, I don't really know why I like that waste of time. Probably the visual style and WTF-ness of it. You've been warned. =))

But also, now I'm reminded of how cool Soul Reaver was.



What the hell's wrong with me ;p

And this trailer of mgs3 still belongs to my all time favourite trailers.



Anyway, I could spam this shit all day, and I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, I don't think I can blame Blizzard of not being like that. Just that at some point they appeared to me like the holy grail of games development, and now for the very same reasons suddenly my interest is all over the place for anything unlike them. *shrug*
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby Ryzel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:05 am

I'm sorry if this is a little off-topic, but maybe the "quality" you're looking for RAV is more an aspect of how you view the game and not an aspect of the game itself? I dunno'.

I can't remember the last time I was genuinely excited about a video game. There were times when I was a kid when a game would come out that I would get super excited about and play with my friends (like Zelda OoT, we'd take turns) and it would be a captivating experience. Then somewhere along the way games turned into just something I did. I have fun playing them, but the genuine wonder that could compare to the beautiful experiences you find in real life isn't there for me anymore.*

* - Except actually, Journey. Good lord you all need to play that game, on a giant projector screen if you can manage it.

I think a big part of why is because I'm no longer a child, and I can't fully commit to the experience as easily as I used to. Most people like to talk about how games aren't captivating enough, like it's the games job to reach through whatever barriers in your psyche you have constructed and drag you into their world. I don't think it works that way. You need to be willing and able to immerse yourself in the experience, and that means being able to put the "real world" completely out of your mind. You can't be finding wonder or getting wowed by a game if in the back of your mind you're thinking about all the shit you need to do. By that same vein, putting achievements into games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age or the like is bullshit. I don't want to be reminded that I'm playing a game and that there's shit I need to do. If I got an achievement for killing 10 snakes I couldn't give less of a fuck, but if I found a farmer who needed the venom to make the snake ointment to save his daughter, who I could then potentially marry or help me in some other way then point me to the snake pit and I'm there.

Anyway, the point of that rant was to illustrate that for me my most profound moments of enjoying video games are when I experience the feelings of wonder or being sucked into the world that's created. I acknowledge that there are plenty of games that say they focus on this as a goal and then fuck it up by throwing in shit like achievements and what not, but more importantly I acknowledge that evoking this feeling requires more effort on my end, such as intentionally setting up a 4-5 day period in advance to really sit through and play a game so my mind isn't plagued with guilt and worry over real-life issues and I can let myself be swept away.

So the questions I'd pose to you RAV is what reason or reasons do you have for playing video games? Which feelings or emotions are you wanting games to evoke from you? And what things can you do on your end to help facilitate that happening?

Oh and also Cass, I'm going to quote your "If you're really fucking smart, do things that only really fucking smart people can do." It's obvious, but it's one of the best things I've read in a while.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:32 pm

It is very difficult to describe what I am looking for, it's kind of a "you know it when you see it" thing.

Blizzard's multiplayer these days is about two things: The business of "e-sports" and "e-conomy". Their single player is designed so to prepare people for b-net multiplayer and social stuff. To this mindset, the most important part of game design is transparent integrity of rules.

But what I want games to be is "e-xceptional". Let me explain.

I recently had a conversation with an artist, in which we argued over the meaning of "pixel" and differences to "voxel". He was adamant about how totally different a real pixel is, and I disagreed fundamentally by basically referring to the concept of "virtual screen". But I also agreed with him by, among many other things, saying the following:

RAV wrote:I spoke earlier of how some of the "inaccuracies" that are so easily possible in the freedom of pixelart are what I see as its defining strength, relative to voxels. Isn't it funny how often doing it "wrong" is precisely the right thing to do to make it look oddly good? These things are defined by being exceptional decisions, sometimes deliberately towards a higher purpose, sometimes inexplainably made from the gut feeling of the artist. Like, "maybe this lightning here on this part of the image is not as perfectly as it 'should' be, but it looks much better breaking it differently" or "I want to repurpose this form here". Basically the true brilliance of an exceptional judgement is what can't be replicated technically when lightning must be done dynamicly, because the computer does not have the human sensibility, only use simple rules of "truth", and apply it everywhere the same.


In my mind, the same thing is true for game design. The art of brilliant game design lies in deliberately breaking his well ruled game, as natural part of the flow in timing and sense. In its true perfection, this you cannot really learn in school, this is all about what more you are than school, and what more your production is to you than income.

What I am looking for is an Oddity that my mind must obsess about, and serves as a bridge to my soul. For one, it is an ascertained need to keeping gameplay dynamic, prevent strategical stalement, but in its most brilliant execution it transcendents this purpose.

To me Diablo 1 is still the greatest Diablo yet. My reason is different though, it is many little things like this: "The cornerstone of the world". To this day this idea fascinates and captivates -- immerses -- me. So there is this stone hidden in a dungeon crypt of your single player campaign, that connects the realities, the worlds, of all your single player campaigns, a feature that allows you to move items from one single player character to another. You can lay an item on it, and when you restart your campaign with a different character, you can search for this place and pick them up. This feature wasn't even explained afaik, you had to figure it out yourself what this is for, from an engraved poem on that stone, that said things like "The stone was of this world -- and of all worlds -- as the light is both within all things and beyond all things." All this is totally stupid by today's standards, why all this trouble, why not just some easy trade window, hell why not the integrated itemshop of Diablo 3...

I tell you why. No, I can't. I can't tell you. I just feel it.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:03 pm

But it also applies to tangential things about character and scene design. For example, Hideo Kojima's MGS series. It certainly is a lot of teenage nerd fap, burdened by some intellectual message crap too, there are way too many cutscenes, corny dialogue, sometimes it's a bit too mechanical, and, and, and... but still... it's more, there is something about it, that fills everything out and oozes.. all those little and big things.. it is exceptional, it is inherently timed right to be exceptional, it clearly was meant to be, but it also just happened to because the people working on it clearly are. It's very immersive, not because of realistic graphics/mechanics, or because the adience is expressly willing to suspend believe, but because the creators valued their work in a way difficult to describe -- you must absorb it. It is a very mature experience, it at least tries to show the variety of human emotion and motivation, in ways few games are. Sure, the characters also are just a vehicle for the game, and yet the game is also a vehicle for something else.

And then there are of course magical things like PS:T, and those great games in the making now.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby Ryzel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:48 pm

I know EXACTLY what you mean by comparing the cornerstone of the world of D1 to the integrated trade window of D3. They compromise the integrity of their world for "ease of use" and "fairness". Every single person I met who's played Star Wars Galaxies loved the HELL out of that game, right up until the point where everyone could be a jedi. Then they all quit, because the "specialness" was gone. Sure the trade window makes trading items in D3 easier, but it's like breaking the 4th wall. In the end, it's just a glorified minesweeper; I enjoy minesweeper from time to time, but I never play a game of minesweeper and then say "well, that was a profound experience."

It seems to me from what I've read that what you're looking for in a game is similar to what others look for in art forms everywhere; the spark of humanity. That's a pretty profound concept to be motivated by, especially in the world of gaming that is becoming more and more overrun by the tenets of our current generation. Not only that, you seem to be looking for it anywhere in the process you can find it; from game theory to game design to game experience. You definitely are putting in the effort to look for it, and I wish you the best in finding it.

Coincidentally, have you heard of Chain World? What are your thoughts on that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_World
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby Cassiel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:13 pm

RAV, D.H. Lawrence on Cezanne:

After a fight tooth-and-nail for forty years, he did succeed in knowing an apple, fully; and, not quite as fully, a jug or two. That was all he achieved. It seems little, and he died embittered. But it is the first step that counts, and Cezanne's apple is a great deal, more than Plato's Idea. . . .

If Cezanne had been willing to accept his own baroque cliché, his drawing would have been perfectly conventionally "all right," and not a critic would have had a word to say about it. But when his drawing was conventionally all right, to Cezanne himself it was mockingly all wrong, it was cliché. So he flew at it and knocked all the shape and stuffing out of it, and when it was so mauled that it was all wrong, and he was exhausted with it, he let it go; bitterly, because it was still not what he wanted. And here comes in the comic element in Cezanne's pictures. His rage with the cliché made him distort the cliché sometimes into parody. . . .

He wanted to express something, and before he could do it he had to fight the hydra-headed cliché, whose last head he could never lop off. The fight with the cliché is the most obvious thing in his pictures. The dust of battle rises thick, and splinters fly wildly. And it is this dust of battle and flying splinters which his imitators still so fervently imitate. . . . I am convinced that what Cezanne himself wanted was representation. He wanted true-to-life representation. Only he wanted it more true-to-life. . . .

Try as he might, women remained a known, ready-made cliché object for him, and he could not break through the concept obsession to get at the intuitive awareness of her. Except with his wife -- and in his wife he did at least know the appleyness. . . . With men Cezanne often dodged it by insisting on the clothes, those stiff cloth jackets bent into thick folds, those hats, those blouses, those curtains. . . .

Where Cezanne did sometimes escape the cliché altogether and really give a complete intuitive interpretation of actual objects is in some of the still-life compositions. . . . Here he is inimitable. His imitators imitate his accessories of tablecloths folded like tin, etc. -- the unreal parts of his pictures -- but they don't imitate the pots and apples, because they can't. It's the real appleyness, and you can't imitate it. Every man must create it new and different out of himself: new and different. The moment it looks "like" Cezanne, it is nothing.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby Cassiel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:16 pm

Ryzel wrote:Coincidentally, have you heard of Chain World? What are your thoughts on that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_World

Previous (short) discussion here.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:29 pm

Cassiel wrote:RAV, D.H. Lawrence on Cezanne:

Haha, this is a great read!

I guess what I'm after is a work's internal rhythm, of cliché and the defiance thereof; it is the context of each other that elevates the joy in them; those parts of it that are cliché do in great love, those that are its defiance do in great lust -- and "pick your battles".
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:39 pm

Ryzel wrote:It seems to me from what I've read that what you're looking for in a game is similar to what others look for in art forms everywhere; the spark of humanity. That's a pretty profound concept to be motivated by, especially in the world of gaming that is becoming more and more overrun by the tenets of our current generation. Not only that, you seem to be looking for it anywhere in the process you can find it; from game theory to game design to game experience. You definitely are putting in the effort to look for it, and I wish you the best in finding it.


The great thing about Diablo3 really is how it brings the worst cliché/tropes of the "rogue-like" genre to their "best" conclusion -- and makes their absurdity most obvious. D3 is an unintentional parody on dungeon crawlers, where they went wrong in their history of "evolution". In that sense it's a pretty profound experience, really. =)))
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:03 pm

This just in, saw like three new AoS announced the other day. :lol:

-- One about the greatest Magicka something something.

-- Total War: Arena, "pitch history's greatest commanders and their armies against each other in massive team-based battles"

-- Infinite Crisis, DC Comics doing one with all their greatest heroes.


How many dozens are those by now? Isn't that... great...
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby Cassiel » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:44 pm

The Flash at 1:05: That's what I wanted Divide and Conquer to be, just with more than one copy of the hero jamming around.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby Merlin » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:58 am

7 hours left. $45 for Torment and Wasteland. :pirate:
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby gandalf37 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:00 pm

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Re: Project Eternity

Postby Cassiel » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:19 pm

Wow, that's quite tempting.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby Ryzel » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:04 pm

If I didn't already own over half of those games I'd totally do it.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:36 am

I finally got a bank account plus paypal a couple days ago, and I made this GoG deal my first online purchase ever. I will eventually whore the fuck out of GoG, it is fantastic. If I ever were to do real commercial work, they'd be my premier distribution channel.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby gandalf37 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:03 am

I missed out on most of these games back in the day so it was an instant purchase for me.

Some of the pages for these games on GoG even have links to awesome instructions on how to mod them to get higher rezes and such. It's great.
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Re: Project Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:34 pm




That's some tight TV quality of writing.
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Re: Project Game, Design Eternity

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:48 am

:lol:

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