Legendary Fall Out

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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:23 pm

Zeuter wrote:I'm tempted to believe that those who would have been modders today, are now instead exactly those F2P developers. It is easier than ever to develop and distribute a game, and turning a profit while doing so is every budding game developer's dream.

However, they do not have access to the vast amount of resources already presented by something like the WC3 engine: hundreds of models, spell effects, tilesets etc. I wonder whether there will ever be some kind of revival in a far, far future, where all of a sudden the copyright on thousands of games will expire, along with all the models/textures entombed within them.

True dat, the closer the host game already is to your vision of game, the most straightforward is modding still. But also, there are large communities dedicated to creating lots of content in platform agnostic formats, readily usable. There's a large ecosystem of freelancers and enthusiast of all professions you can work something out with. It's all just a handshake and smile away. The support, the standards, the networks, the education, makes all the difference to the past. It's why all things fly now in any form.

Not sure how I fit in either way though. I'm a secluded woozaloo fumbling around with stick and stone. :lol:
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Zeuter » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:02 pm

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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby RageAgainstVoid » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:59 am

Dota Drama!
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Zeuter » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:29 am

Convincing people that LoL is not a competitive game is horrible. LoL is horrible. People who enjoy it are horrible. Horrible.
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Zeuter » Fri May 24, 2013 7:16 am

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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Zeuter » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:31 am

Spoiler:
1380284330477.png
1380284330477.png (71.92 KiB) Viewed 2164 times
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby gandalf37 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:51 am

Did he forget to put /sarcasm? People might think he's being serious!
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Deacon (AYC) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:01 pm

that is the first thing anyone said about the new champion I wasn't shocked

in other news the LoL World Champs only further confirms Riot are incapable of running an e-sports scene they are desperately trying to monopolize
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Zeuter » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:17 pm

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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Merlin » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:30 pm

Other tips:
Be first to release a standalone f2p version of an already wildly popular genre.
Be subsidized by a Chinese mega corporation to the tune of tens of millions.
Be diligent about stifling competition.
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Cassiel » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:03 pm

Don't discount the business savvy behind their choice of a F2P model. We take it for granted now, but at the time it was a pretty bold move for a non-casual game. Also LoL isn't successful because it's backed by Tencent; Tencent bought Riot because of LoL's success.

What is Riot doing to stifle competition?
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Turkey_Slayer » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:23 pm

It's pretty business savvy, but LoL is also an example of a F2P model gone wrong. I'll buy a game for full price that includes all the content that it should have over buying all the content in a F2P game like LoL any day.
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Cassiel » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:48 pm

How does your n=1 demonstrate that LoL is an example of a F2P model gone wrong? I mean, I wouldn't spend money on LoL either way, but the model clearly works. Reminds me of two things:

1. Something the founder of Stack Overflow posted this morning: "The real insight is that the free product has a chance to reach an enormous audience which provides distribution/advertising/marketing making it trivial to go to market with your paid product." Point being, this is a trend across all tech companies. It didn't start with games. In fact, games are a bit late to the party.

2. CCGs in general and Magic in particular. Some people complain about the collectable component because it's expensive, but collectability is a big part of why it's been so popular. Magic never would've taken off as a static set or LCG. Collectability is some monkey brain shit. Most people are wired for it.
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Zeuter » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:52 pm

Cassiel wrote:Don't discount the business savvy behind their choice of a F2P model. We take it for granted now, but at the time it was a pretty bold move for a non-casual game. Also LoL isn't successful because it's backed by Tencent; Tencent bought Riot because of LoL's success.

What is Riot doing to stifle competition?


Agreed, they made excellent business decisions even though the game itself is awful pay2win garbage.
They're sponsoring major lans/events, under the conditions that any other AoS-likes are banned from said event.

Turkey_Slayer wrote:It's pretty business savvy, but LoL is also an example of a F2P model gone wrong. I'll buy a game for full price that includes all the content that it should have over buying all the content in a F2P game like LoL any day.


How do you mean gone wrong? In that it's an awful game? The F2P model in it monetizes very well. It's also downright unethical, but who cares about ethics when it's legal and nets you tens of millions a month. Speaking of makeup, this here could very well destroy many toxic monetization methods. (Also amusing to note that King (Candy Crush etc) is now filing for IPO at $5 billion, before it crashes in 6 months).

In the end, there are very few f2p models that I'd consider bordering on ethical. DotA 2 does it right - they don't monetize pain points but rather create high engagement, then let the community itself create superfluous content then sell that stuff back to the community at ridiculous prices. All these dumb nerds just eat that shit right up. The nice thing here is that it doesn't affect the core gameplay in any sense, it's not pay2win and is still a fun enough game if you aren't stupid enough to be peer pressured into buying virtual keys to virtual lockboxes that might (or might not) contain some rare item. Good grief, people are retarded, and because of capitalism I can make a living off of that.

See also this comment:
it's the same way Cell phone carriers charged users for text messaging. It takes advantage of a tech illiterate audience for financial gain. No sane person who actually understands programming, computers and the internet would waste money on F2P.
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Zeuter » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:18 am

On second thought, those customer protection principles aren't all that draconic. It's still very much viable to create a disgusting f2p game while in full compliance.

Has anyone here heard of Puzzle & Dragons? It plays the CCG trick very well. In addition to being bejeweled with friends ville saga.
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Merlin » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:46 am

Cassiel wrote:Also LoL isn't successful because it's backed by Tencent; Tencent bought Riot because of LoL's success.

What is Riot doing to stifle competition?

The season 1 championship prize pool in early 2011 (before Tencent) was $99,000, and that was the highest that year. The 2012 championship prize pool was $2,000,000. Riot (Tencent) has been pumping a ton cash into their esports scene since the start of 2012. They pay all the teams wages, and control just about every aspect of how their game is broadcast.

As for what they've done to stifle competition: Pendragon deleted dota-allstars.com, and replaced it with LoL ads, then told those who complained to fuck off.
Riot tried to force teams that wanted to participate in LCS to drop their DotA roster.
As Zeuter points out, they've paid to be the only AoS on the floor, either by sponsoring an event with that stipulation, or buying out the event and producing the show themselves (LCS at an MLG.)
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Deacon (AYC) » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:22 am

There was also PAX this year where the whole free play area was decked out in League of Legends content and every Steam game minus DotA was present, for which a really lackluster excuse about bandwidth was given.

I don't understand why Valve DON'T want to drive it more considering Riot has a barely-functional EUW server (which has apparently been the case for well over a year), has lost fans over the scheduling of Worlds and the running of its brackets, and all around non-sensical buff and nerf cycles which leave only a pool of like 15 champions viable for any sort of play.

Also Riot attempting to mirror professional sporting weekly cycles is really getting pathetic. Korea are the only ones running a different system because for some reason they have jurisdiction away from Riot's main body, and it shows because it is the only system people seem to enjoy (although the circuit system can definitely use work, it is far superior to this LCS bullshit where a whole half of the year is actually irrelevant).
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Cassiel » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:08 am

Merlin wrote:The season 1 championship prize pool in early 2011 (before Tencent) was $99,000, and that was the highest that year. The 2012 championship prize pool was $2,000,000. Riot (Tencent) has been pumping a ton cash into their esports scene since the start of 2012. They pay all the teams wages, and control just about every aspect of how their game is broadcast.

Correlation does not imply causation. Riot was vocal about chasing e-sports from the beginning. They put as much money into it as made sense given their spreadsheets, and as the game became more and more popular, the numbers spit out by those spreadsheet formulas grew. Tencent may have accelerated the process a bit, who knows, but LoL stands on its own.

Merlin wrote:As for what they've done to stifle competition: Pendragon deleted dota-allstars.com, and replaced it with LoL ads, then told those who complained to fuck off.

That's not anti-competitive.

Merlin wrote:As Zeuter points out, they've paid to be the only AoS on the floor, either by sponsoring an event with that stipulation, or buying out the event and producing the show themselves (LCS at an MLG.)

That's competitive, not anti-competitive.

Merlin wrote:Riot tried to force teams that wanted to participate in LCS to drop their DotA roster.

This one, however, is super sketchy.

Zeuter wrote:See also this comment:
it's the same way Cell phone carriers charged users for text messaging. It takes advantage of a tech illiterate audience for financial gain. No sane person who actually understands programming, computers and the internet would waste money on F2P.

That dude is off his nut. "F2P is an exploitive model where the gamer gets less." -- ? There are layers of bullshit in that claim, but mostly it's just the fact that the gamer does not, in fact, get less. LoL has been pushing out new content non-stop for almost half a decade, last I heard. If you want to pay your flat fee and be done, that's fine, but then you'd still be a) playing the version of LoL from 2009, or b) plopping down an additional flat fee for each new content release.

The problems with some F2P implementations include, as you noted, pay2win, but also dark patterns in the UI and gameplay engineered specifically to be addicting (which isn't limited to F2P, obviously; both F2P and paid MMOs are big on that one). None of this stuff is inherent to F2P, though. Hell, statistically I'd wager that most F2P is purely ad-supported.
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Zeuter » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:05 am

Would you agree though that, in order to unlock the full game of LoL at this point, that would be worth the hundreds of dollars it now takes? Is the additional content really substantial enough to warrant that price? The thousands for runes (in the form of boosts) to be competitive? I'd say that's complete bullshit. Gamers are buying virtual goods at hugely inflated prices, and cannot see through the bullshit because they're being actively misled. If they fully understood what was going on, I don't think LoL would have many fans left.

That said, AAA studios who do it the old fashioned way are not exactly behaving ethically either. But that's marketing, and that's a socially acceptable form of misleading your customers.
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Deacon (AYC) » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:17 am

I have dropped undisclosed hundreds into LoL over the 3 year period I've played, it's absolutely necessary
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Zeuter » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:28 am

But was it worth it?
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Deacon (AYC) » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:56 am

I thought it was up until like two months ago when it finally clicked it was a terrible game and I regret a lot

thank god for desperate 16 year olds who want MMR that I can pawn the account off to for a fair bit I'd hope
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Merlin » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:37 am

Cassiel wrote:Correlation does not imply causation. Riot was vocal about chasing e-sports from the beginning. They put as much money into it as made sense given their spreadsheets, and as the game became more and more popular, the numbers spit out by those spreadsheet formulas grew. Tencent may have accelerated the process a bit, who knows, but LoL stands on its own.

I suppose it's true that I can't prove Tencent bank rolled their sudden rise, and I've read that Riot has made an obscene amount of money with their microtransactions, but I still think that it's reasonable to assume Tencent got the ball rolling. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say they punted the ball...

At any rate, 2012 was a hell of a year for Riot in terms of growth, and I don't believe it has anything do with the quality of their esports scene. Their pros are all fucking weirdos, and that kid Travis is a god damn charisma black hole.
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Turkey_Slayer » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:16 am

I didn't mean gone wrong from a business perspective, but from a consumer and gamer perspective. There are ways to have a F2P game without ruining the game itself in the process.
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Re: Legendary Fall Out

Postby Deacon (AYC) » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:17 pm

Merlin wrote:Their pros are all fucking weirdos

Taking one look at the crowd for worlds you can see why people like WildTurtle and TheOddOne would be appealing to North American fans of the game.

Travis is a hilarious case because he is a broke bum who got rejected by riot numerous times and then somehow ended up on Gamespot with a full time job interviewing his former roommate for 80% of the content he puts out.

The only person who I honestly have time for in the scene is MonteCristo, who has really been the saving grace of World Champs this year. Riot's personalities for commentating often get things wrong frequently, even their 'top' or popular ones. It baffles me that they hired Jatt seeing as he attempted to openly cheat the WCS system last year (I think it was)
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